I’m not sure that we disagree on anything. As I said, you may not gain weight on 5000 calories if your insulin is really low. (I should have added that the background is really important. Results will most likely be different if you come from the SAD or from years of keto.)
But we’re discussing @ctviggen here, who did eat some carbs in between. Do you think Sam Feltham would have lost any fat if he had eaten carbs, say once every other day? I don’t think so.
@KetoSponge Sorry for the delay. I have a lot going on. I got a respite from my basement project, as I ordered drill bits for concrete…which did not fit my drill. I forgot I had a special drill that needed special bits. So, I had a bit of time and wanted to check in.
Anyway, I started out doing Brad’s high stearic acid ghee. Basically, you take butter, make ghee, then add his stearic acid. But they I would melt about 50% cacao butter with it. I ate it just like this.
I would also take chunks of cacao butter and add it to yogurt with dark chocolate. The cacao butter doesn’t taste that great.
I also made white chocolate with cacao butter and fake sugar and other ingredients (coconut milk powder, which is basically 100% saturated fat, though I’m not sure of what type) . These were mainly for my kid’s lunches, but I ate them too. This is where I think the “all you need is high saturated fat and low PUFA” idea fails: even though these are high in saturated fat, because they are sweet, I could eat a ton of them.
I think what’s happening is they are front-loading all of their calories. The problem is that we all aren’t like that.
Brad follows a woman on Twitter who goes by “sasha” I believe. She eats similar to what you described, in that she eats most of her calories in the morning and a tiny (and I do mean TINY) meal at night.
But I can’t do that.
Here is Dr. Eade’s version of this, where he also places obesity on PUFAs:
So, if the theory is that you can eat carbs as long as you eat PUFAs and high saturated fat – and this is the theory, as they use the French as an example – for me, it’s wrong. As soon as there is one black swan, the theory is wrong.
You also should note that I ate low carb (no TKD) AND high saturated fat. Same effect. If I do not eat enough saturated fat, I do not get a satiety effect.
Also, as for dairy, I don’t have any issues I’ve ever seen. I’ve tried not eating dairy and eating dairy. No difference that I could see.
The issue is that if you want to increase your saturated fat, how do you do that? Dairy. Most meat (other then beef suet) does not have that much saturated fat. I’ve tried suet too, but that has the same issue: I have not been able to get a satiety effect with the amount I’ve eaten. And I don’t like it that much. Too “chewy”.
Brad has two new posts up:
In the second one, he gives this:
Again, I must be different. This theory is the lower the better. I get a 1.67 yet am not “lean”.
@ctviggen Thanks for the links, Bob! Maybe this is a clue to your issues:
In part 2 I will argue that the difference between a lean metabolism and a post-obese metabolism is permanently up-regulated SCD1 in the post-obese state. I will present a mechanism by which dietary PUFA could lead to permanently up-regulated SCD1.
I’ve already purchased the oil he is selling, to be released in January. I’m not found of increasing inflammation, but taking it a month shouldn’t be bad.
Might also get some CLA (or maybe something else? One of his recommended herbs?). I used to take CLA, a long time ago.
By the way, just to be clear: I still use high saturated fat at times. For instance, if I’m going to fast the next day (OMAD) or for 36 hours, I’ll eat some dairy, dark chocolate, and cacao butter. This helps me get “hot” so I don’t get cold while fasting.
I’m currently trying a TKD again and eating some spaghetti squash on my first meal after my workout. This week, I’m using spaghetti sauce, as my wife accidentally bought spicy sauce, and I’m the only one who can eat it. Next week, I might make some ghee + stearic acid and put that in my spaghetti squash.
For me, my question arises with carbs (the carbs in spag squash are quite low; I’ve been using maybe 30 grams/meal). I know most people say “carbs + fat = bad”, but the critique of this is that populations like the French eat carbs + fat and are thinner than we are. Why? Also, when I heard Brad interviewed, he said that the “carbs + fat = bad” is a US thing; it’s not the same way in other cultures.
And if it WAS possible to eat a croissant with butter and you would not be hungry for a long time, would you do it? I was thinking mainly for my kids, as this would provide something more “normal” for them to eat. For me, I would eat these every once in a while, as I think wheat and I still don’t get along. But at least I’d know I could eat these.
Unfortunately, it seems I can’t. My mind could, of course, change as I gather more data. I usually make some “bread” for Thanksgiving/Christmas, as since everyone comes to our place, I can make bread, eat some, and it’s gone. That’s my treat. I may make croissants year, assuming we get together. If I do make croissants, I’ll see what my hunger does. The one time I tried this, it did not seem blunted. But I could be wrong.
True. But this is Brads theory, not Peters (protons). I already said that I don’t agree with Brad there.
Protons establishes PUFAs as one driver of obesity, but doesn’t rule out that there are other drivers (like insulin). I also remember talks where Eades argues that the combination of PUFAs and carbs is to blame, talking about this study where children ate to satiety and consumed almost twice the calories when their carbs came from fries (in PUFAs) vs. mash (with butter). Not sure if it was the linked talk.
We know that rich people were obese as long ago as ancient rome, and they certainly didn’t eat PUFAs. I’m not an expert, but I’d wager they ate carbs, at least some fructose and plenty of alcohol.
Because everything changes once you get metabolic syndrome. With low insulin, fat will predominantly be burned and not stored. With high insulin, fat gets stored and we need more carbs to satisfy our energetic needs. The “paradox” French did not have metS.
BTW, the French people got a lot fatter in the recent years, as did the Japanese and other supposedly thin cultures. It’s the same story all over: Increase your insulin via the many mechanisms out there (too many carbs, PUFAs, environmental toxins, stress, lack of sleep, again I’ll recommend Ben Bikmans fantastic book here), and you will get fat on exactly the same mix of nutrients that keeps insulin sensitive people perfectly slim.
I also made an experiment, ate some carbs for 2 weeks. Gained 6 pounds, had major cravings, even though my HOMA-IR has returned to almost normal levels (1.3 was the last value). Perhaps even many years on keto are not enough to make our body tolerant to carbs again.
Maybe PUFAs are a major driver for developing metS in the first place. Once you have it, it may not matter if you eat PUFAs or not. MetS is permanent perhaps, sentence for life. That explains why people who lived low PUFA all their life can eat carbs.
My guess is that you were always intolerant of carbohydrate, it’s just that when you were weaned onto carbs you were too young to notice or report the symptoms.
That would be a very differently working body so I don’t know… But nope, I need nutritious food, not just fat and starch and I need it for each and every meal. So I still would eat fatty protein. Or carby protein. More appealing food and more useful as well. (And with my actual body, the only way to reach satiation.)
Another (possible) reason why I wouldn’t do it… I probably would need very very many croissant with butter to reach satiation. So I would massively overeat each and every day. Using not really valuable food. Not good.
I don’t think carb + fat = bad, I never agreed with that opinion. It may be horrible for many, sure but it’s just not seem to be true for everyone. It is for me but it’s way way worse (and completely impossible) if I use little fat while eating much carbs. But carb + fat is the only and great way to eat for some people. Each to their own, I always say.
I don’t talk about gaining fat, that’s basically about overeating (even if it’s complicated as some people overeat while not eating very much for their stats while others need to stuff themselves like crazy all the time to gain a little per year. and there may be interesting hormonal and other conditions interfering. still, one needs the energy to gain the extra fat).
Sorry, I’m getting back to this. Will read above, but maybe not until this weekend.
Tried a TKD with a bit of spaghetti squash and high-stearic-acid butter oil. About 3-4 heaping table spoons full.
What I find is that the reduction in hunger does not occur while eating. In fact, I was a bit hungry after eating my first meal around 10 am (body weight workout for about and hour at 6 am, so about 3 hours after my workout). But the reduction in hunger comes hours later. It’s not 4:20 pm, so about 6.5 hours since I ate, and I’m not that hungry.
It’s this reason I don’t think OMAD is best for me. For many, it’s hard to eat over their day’s calories in one sitting. For me, I don’t really struggle making it all day until one meal. However, once I eat that meal, I could keep going and going, even with clean foods. I find that if I do eat lunch, my appetite for dinner is still there, but not ravenous.
Interesting. I find the opposite: if I eat one meal, I can’t eat that much. I get too full.
This might be the effect of higher saturated fat, as the fat that gets “expressed” into the blood for your current meal depends in part on your previous meal.
I’m not sure why I get more of an effect with one meal rather than two, though. And, I eat later in the evening for my OMAD, which might mean I can’t eat that much.
Everyone is different, I guess.
I’m still trying high saturated fat, as I do seem to be turning a corner and reducing my weight again. Or at least all my clothes are fitting better.
And, in general, I do feel better eating more saturated fat. That could be what I’m eating (some dairy, cacao), or could be the saturated fat or both. I tend to eat leaner meats (when I control my meals) with added saturated fat. It could, of course, have nothing to do with any of that, too. 
A check in.
Over the holiday, I had some (real) pancakes that were made with a lot of butter and I put quite a bit of butter on them. Think “butter sandwich”. If the theory is that butter + carbs = lowered hunger, this is completely false by this meal. I was STARVING later, and could have easily eaten 10 of these, though I only ate 2.
I also tried potato fries, fried in tallow made from suet. The tallow is extremely hard at room temperature (about 65F), so I assume it’s a lot of saturated fat. Again, I could’ve eaten tons of fries, with no “off switch”, and did not note any subsequent lack of hunger effect.
On the other hand, I think saturated fat in the context of a low carb diet is helpful for me. I feel better (which, of course, I could be imagining), and there is some blunting of hunger, particularly when I add berberine to this. Still testing though…
TL/DR; I think there’s something to this
Long time lurker here (2 years). Quick background, lost 110 pounds on keto in 2019 and have kept it off through today while trying a few radically different diet incarnations while my goals shifted from weight loss to strength training and maintenance. Currently playing with a high saturated fat/TCD variation.
I’ve found that carbs do have a definite effect on my satiety (positively) but the ratio of carbs:fat need not be very high. For example, a cheeseburger and some fries fried in tallow was moderately satisfying, but when I soaked and toasted the bun in the burger run off it was significantly better. I think if the base or medium you’re using to eat the fat is too carb heavy you’ll fail to reach satiety before over eating. French fries, pancakes, or pasta are all foods that easily fit this profile where they can be wonderful mediums for fat but the ratio of carbs:fat may not be as low as you think.
If I eat to satiety on this diet I find I’m not hungry again for around 9 to 12 hours, which is longer than I historically go between meals and fits neatly in a TMAD schedule. If I’m not full after I finish my meal I’ve found I need either more protein or more fat and I won’t be truly satisfied until I get whichever it is. If I don’t eat to/near true satiety I get hungry again much sooner, leading to extra meals and high calorie days. I wonder if this is some of the problem with the SAD? Maybe this is what you experienced? The obvious conclusion is that you don’t need the carbs (especially on a keto forum), but I feel better with them included and my satiety signals are stronger even though they don’t seem to drive satiety in isolation.
I’ve been tracking with cronometer and my macros seem to be settling pretty consistently around 25/50/25 p/f/c with about 50% of the fat being saturated, but it’s only been a few weeks yet.
I wrote here long ago, I hope I didn’t repeat myself too much…
Almost any amount of added fat + carbs = instant hunger to me… 
The egg in pancake helps but I would need more than 10 eggs for that let alone pancakes…
500g bread with lots of butter surely wasn’t enough in the few times I tested… I stayed hungry. You made the test more butter heavy though… Still, the presence of carbs and the very low amount of protein makes it a not satiating food to me.
Potato with butter? I had that in my past many times. Nope, not really good for hunger.
But the satiation effect of food is very very individual, I learned this through reading about people’s experiences. I am doomed without fatty protein, added fat doesn’t work well.
And if I add some carbs, even if it’s little and I stay in ketosis, it hurts my satiation so it’s not what @Selllow has at all. We people are just too different.
I can’t experiment with saturated fat as my woe isn’t flexible enough for that and I can’t possibly know the fat profile of the significant amount of fatty pork I consume. And I only experienced the big difference between added fat (or cream) and fat in my protein sources.
When I very unusually seriously overate on a keto day once, I ate much coconut oil, yep, saturated added fat just doesn’t work for me. If I had used some satiating fat, I would have felt super full and I felt quite normal. I didn’t even feel I ate much more than usual fat and I did.
@Shinita, I think you’re carnivore? What I do frequently when testing things out is use foods that are near pure macros. Ham, tuna, yogurt, cream cheese, heavy cream, butter, and cacao butter are staples I use to fill out meals after I’ve eaten but am missing “something”. I start with protein and wait a few minutes, if that wasn’t it I hit the fat. It’d be easy enough to do with pork loin and really fatty pork belly if that fits your preferences. Fatty meat is tough to figure the macros of which is why I don’t put a ton of weight on day to day food tracking but if you zoom out far enough I think it’s accurate enough to give you an idea of what’s going on.
