My How You've Grown!

(less is more, more or less) #1

Edit and Update

Some of us old-timers accidentally hi-jacked a thread. There were some interesting discussion that broke out (thank you, confirmation bias) so I split the tangents into this thread.

In this title, “grown” is not as in “how your belly fat as grown,” but how our leading scientists, nutritionists, speakers, and so on, have changed over time from epiphany to today.

Let the convo resume.

I’ve noticed your preternatural delight in this sentiment. While Phinney started his research focusing on athletic performance, what recent references can you provide that he continues to limit his research in the way?

Doing well with 100 NCP diet
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

It’s not too surprising that Phinney and Volek started by focusing on athletic performance. Phinney was/is a cyclist and Volek was (and still may be) a power lifter. There are as many insights to be gained from studying the fit as from studying the unfit, after all.

But even though Phinney’s study population started out being athletes, his primary interest was always nutrition. He began by trying to refute Dr. Atkins, after all. In that light, it’s no surprise that Virta’s care model focuses on diet as a form of treatment. And don’t forget that, while Phinney is a researcher, he is also a clinician to whom patient care is important.

(Running from stupidity) #3

The real point about that is that almost all quotes (well, references, most don’t quote) in here are from people who quote his stuff from donkeys-yonks ago, without acknowledging his subjects. And I detested the “New Atkins” book so I didn’t read more than about a third of it. (Yes, I know that’s going to trigger you as well given who helped write it :slight_smile:

But yes, time to change it, I’ve been slack with rolling them over recently. Need to put a reminder in my system for it.

(Running from stupidity) #4

Welcome to forums.

(less is more, more or less) split this topic #5

A post was merged into an existing topic: Doing well with 100 NCP diet

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

Well, if anyone knows, it’s Eric Westman. I’d say you idolize him too much, Kyle, except that I had the pleasure of speaking to him briefly at Ketofest last year. (heavy sigh) :heart:

Doing well with 100 NCP diet
(Running from stupidity) #7

And who does he count them for, for the figure most often quoted?

I mean, who cares what elite athletes can eat?

Even for people not metabolically deranged, elite athletes are not a common breed.

Quoting his figures (without the disqualifying qualifier) just isn’t all that useful, IMHO.

(less is more, more or less) #8

Elite athletes, but that’s beside the point.

Virta Health isn’t focused on elite athletes unless there’s an audience of 100 million elite athletes.

https://blog.virtahealth.com/mission-to-reverse-type-2-diabetes/

If you spend time with Phinney’s work, he is more focused on the general population and our health. I don’t see the disqualifier.

(less is more, more or less) #9

Perhaps it comes off that way, BUT, he’s never steered me wrong. When left the Westman ranch to increase my fat intake to meet some confounded "ideal” macro ratio, my diet started to fail. (TL;DR, protein is awesome) Same for my accidentally failing to maintain salt intake, and here, carbs.

Let’s just say my n=1 with Westman is solid.

(Running from stupidity) #10

Yeah, thus all my qualifications around the number usually quoted by people, which is from his work with elite athletes, and how they do that without qualifying it by explaining that.

(less is more, more or less) #11

@Gaff had posted about how underwhelmed he was by Westman’s “New Atkins for a New You” I haven’t read, nor plan on reading, since I can simply ask the man any questions at my next visit.

I also don’t plan on reading Jimmy Moore and Dr Westman’s “Keto Clarity: Your Definitive Guide to the Benefits of a Low-Carb, High-Fat Diet” With no offense intended towards Dr. Westman, it’s an odd pairing of authors. I did breeze through it, and I find the “subject x for dummies” style of writing condescending and irritating.

(less is more, more or less) #12

<scratches tilted head> But I provided links with my quotes. HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU WANT, MAN!?!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

My real point in mentioning Phinney’s work was to illustrate that the advice has to be different for different people. When I first went keto/LCHF, it was with Phinney’s 100-125 g/day recommendation in mind, and it worked for me. There are people who can get into ketosis eating that much carbohydrate, and I appear to be one of them.

On the other hand, there are people whose metabolisms are sufficiently disordered that they need to adhere to a much lower maximum, and the 20 g/day recommendation is predicated on the Dudes’ experience.

Likewise, Phinney’s more recent experience with the general diabetic population has caused him to lower his recommendation to 50 g/day for their sake, and I’m sure the Virta coaches don’t hesitate to tell patients to eat less than that when it is warranted.

To further complicate the issue, there is also the matter of addiction to sugar and carbohydrate. As an addict myself, I find it much more helpful to adhere to the 20 g/day limit recommended by the Dudes and Carrie, since it is much less likely that I will get triggered to go on a binge when eating that little carbohydrate.

(Lest you doubt that sugar addiction is real, we celebrated my boss’s birthday a couple of weeks ago, and I am still feeling the effects of eating that piece of birthday cake and some of the other carbohydrate the ladies put out at coffee hour. I knew it wasn’t going to taste as great as I wanted and that I would regret it, and it didn’t and I do, but I am still dealing with the consequences. And it is only by God’s good grace—I mean that very literally—that I did not then leave the church and head straight for the Dunkin Donuts six miles down the road.)

I guess the lesson from all this is that a ketogenic diet is whatever keeps someone’s insulin low enough to allow nutritional ketosis, and that we never should have put the nation on a “heart-healthy” diet. The consequences of which have been horrific.

(less is more, more or less) #14

I, too, see a similar pattern, whereby the doctors with more patient experience drive down daily total carb recommendations. The common push back against counting total carbs I see raised on these forums strike me as rationalizations, and not evidence based.

Sigh, yea, yea, of course n=1. I understand that some people do better with higher amounts. Some people do fine, it seems, on the SAD amount of carbs. But the anecdotal doesn’t scale well.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

In a couple of lectures of his, Phinney has stated that he estimates around 20% of the population is fine on a high-carbohydrate diet. It’s the rest of us who have to be careful.

(less is more, more or less) #16

And, within the past year, Taubes as been noting that it’s this same group from which nutritionists and their ilk draw their conclusion that what works for these “healthy high carbers” must work for every human, no exceptions.

#17

And of course, we all know that us humans are a ‘one size fits all’ kind of population.

Not.
:woman_facepalming:

(Running from stupidity) #18

Me too, it’s like a sales pamphlet. Horrible thing.

Me either, JM can screw up anything he gets near.

ALL of my quote, not just one little bit out of context! THAT’S HOW MUCH MOORE (LOL) I WANT!

:slight_smile:

(less is more, more or less) #19

Yea, I annoy people when I do that. :slight_smile:

(Running from stupidity) #20

:metal::metal::metal::metal::metal: