Muscle loss?

(mole person) #4

My scale recorded really messed up readings of fat and muscle for over a month after I started keto. Remember, you’ve lost water so your percentage of fat will automatically go up even though your actual fat mass is identical or even lower.

(Omar) #5

not sure what that means

a heavy carb snacking can not be under the umbrella of healthy diet

(Bunny) #6

Was looking at that bioelectrical impedance (BIA) thing posted by Rob!

That has me thinking electrolysis and salt when it comes to electrical conductivity?

If your intake of sodium, potassium and magnesium is higher? That could effect the BMI (%fat, %lean, %bone density, %potassium, %sodium, %water) readings on those types of scales that send a tiny electrical impulse though the body?

Not sure if there is any correlation at all in what I’m implying but it sure is suspicious on the accuracy of those types of scales?

DEXA scans are the only way to get closer to accurate ideas about what’s really happening that includes visuals?

(Windmill Tilter) #7

I’ll echo all the sentiments expressed above; bioimpedence scales are not particularly accurate, but that doesn’t mean they’re not useful! Here is an excellent series of articles that weighs the merits and weaknesses of the various bodyfat measurement methodologies from consumer grade bioimpedence, bod pod, skinfold calipers, DEXA, etc.

Even knowing all this, I still track myself over the course of weeks and months with a bioimpedance scale. What I want to see is the trendline rather than individual readings. If it’s going down over the course of 4 weeks, I know I’m on the right track. For the same reason, I measure my waist and hips with a measuring tape once every couple of weeks. The scale lies, but the measuring tape does not. My weight can fluctuate by 10lbs in 48hrs depending on what I eat, but the tape won’t change much.

(Windmill Tilter) #8

Is muscle loss normal? Does it stabilize in time?

I think the answer to your question is that yes and no. If you lose 25lbs through daily calorie restriction and drop from 25% bodyfat to 15% bodyfat over the course of 25 weeks, with no exercise, it is likely that you will lose some muscle. It doesn’t matter whether your keto or vegan.

Muscle loss is by no means inevitable however. There is no reason you cannot put on 5 of lean muscle over this time span. It doesn’t take much time or effort either. I do the Body by Science workout by Dr. Doug McGuff. I do heavy resistance training for 15 minutes once every 5 days. I have gained visible muscle in the past 2 months and my leg press has gone from 350# to 550# in the timeframe. I have also lost 18lbs. It’s harder to gain muscle while in a caloric deficit, but it can definitely be done. Lots of folks on this site have done it. Do a search for Brenda Zorn with the search bar if you really want to be blown away! :slight_smile:

(less is more, more or less) #9

Marc,

Welcome to the forums. To help us better answer your question, please elaborate what “Been on Keto” means to you. Specifically, what foods are you eating and avoiding? Please be as specific as possible. The old-timers here will tell you, such as I, that “eating keto” is not as simple as merely claiming you’re eating “Keto” or low-carb.

I presume that, as of now, you meant to say that you are no longer carb-snacking?

(Consensus is Politics) #10

Bunny, you beat me to the punch. When I read that that type of scale basically does an ohms check on your body, the first thing that popped into my mind was electrolytes.

A little electrical science lesson here… pure water, with no impurities at all, is a near perfect insulator. Indeed theoretically you could drop that toaster in the tub with you and nothing would happen, not even trip a circuit breaker. But, as soon as you got in that tub of pure water the salts on you skin and whatever other daily diet you brought in would pollute the entire tub in mere milliseconds. So it’s still advisable not to bath while making toast. Adding salt to water decreases resistance, and allows more current to flow. Which I why I used a lot of salt water when I made my own electrolyzing devices. :sunglasses:

When I was 14, I was quite the science experimenter. My mom called me a mad scientist (she didn’t know half of it). I made my own electrolyzing device. I figured the bubbles coming off the electrodes where from the current splitting the molecules apart, and I decided to test it. I took high voltage diode out of my old defunct color TV so I could have pulsating DC instead of AC, so the bubbles rising at each lead would remain the same, O2 on one side and H on the other. I then captured it and tested it. I had spectacular results. Fortunately I decided small scale was better than my original large scale. I was going to fill large garbage bags with H and fly them outside. I went with test tubes instead. I was very happy I made that decision :scream:. H gas is not something to take lightly. (Tip: DO NOT hold the test tube in your hand when you put a match up into the tube to check which gas is in it. The tube slid out from my grasp as if it got suddenly coated with oil. Melted skin has that effect. Hey, I was 14, little parental supervision, and very lucky there was no internet in the 1970’s. I say that because I now know how to make incendiary devices using my own blood and aluminum foil. And a little H gas to ignite it.)

#11

5’10- 185… I would kill to be there… 9lbs to go! not sure what his diet is, but he is doing pretty well to start.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #12

So if I understand you correctly you’re basing your muscle loss on what your scale is calculating? Or is it appearance or measurement in inches on arms or body, measurements of areas where you had little fat? I have read the eating glucose rich foods cause your muscles to hold more fluid and eating a ketogenic diet can cause muscle to appear flatter and less puffy, but not a significant mass loss. Also are you eating enough protein?

(mole person) #13

This is absolutely true. Glycogen is stored in muscles. Every gram of glycogen is stored with four grams of water. This is depleted on a ketogenic diet but the actual muscle tissue is still there.

(Doug) #14

Very true, and water is heavy - a DEXA scan, for example, will then show more lean mass. Conversely, going from heavy carb-eating to keto and/or fasting will result in substantially less water retention and scan results that induce some to see it as “Oh my god I’m losing muscle!”

(Marc Stewart Brown) #15

Mostly crackers, and such. As a wannabe vegan I did eat a lot fruit every day, however I indulged in binge snacking of wheat thins and cookies whenever I came home from work.

(Marc Stewart Brown) #16

“Being on Keto” to me means I’m eating mostly proteins, fats, (also lettuces), and no fruit, or crackers or any processed carbs. I did enjoy some Splenda, which I found out could be detrimental? Thus as of last night I’ve given that up in my coffee in favor of High Fructose Corn Syrup. (I’m kidding, but now no more Splenda)

(Marc Stewart Brown) #17

Hi All,

I really appreciate all the responses and input. Blown away actually. My wife and I are following recipies from the Diet Doctor website. My only indulgence are nuts, both peanuts and others (avoiding cashews)

As an aside, I’m truly shocked how many carbs I did consume and think I was being healthy because it was low-fat or low animal protein. (I’ve followed a mostly plant based food lifestyle for the past three years.) Trying to stave off diabetes now and lose and keep off the last 20 or so pounds. (lost about 60 pounds so far from simply “healthier” eating)

Again, thank you all.

(Marc Stewart Brown) #18

I imagine I am eating enough protein. I AM trying to not overindulge in calories per se, but am eating primarily protein throughout the day.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #19

Extra protein does not necessary equal more muscle mass. Fats are the primary concern as to getting enough, especially in the beginning. You need to eat that for energy. Protein doesn’t generate much energy food wise. It’s building blocks for your body to use. Fats or carbs provide energy. You won’t function without at least one of them. Our choice is to burn fat and you need time to switch over, more than a week. Lots of basic keto threads you should read. @juice wrote a sort of beginners manifesto.

(Marc Stewart Brown) #20

It’s taken me two years, and began with juicing, the progressing to eating a primarily plant based diet with simple calorie reduction. My prior eating habits were plumb atrocious by any standard. Over the time I’ve been disciplined, but have recently gotten lax with processed food, high sugar /carb intake, and thus my weight loss has regressed.

My wife forced me into this nightmare (for a vegan) this week, however my weight loss so far, as well as my realization of my sugar / carb addiction is forcing me to genuinely investigate and consider this.

(Robert C) #21

So true - no correlation really - instead, stimulating growth (lifting heavy things) has a nearly %100 correlation.

(Running from stupidity) #22

And here it is :slight_smile:

Keto is this easy (Keto for beloved noobs)

This is for Phase One - the starter phase. It’s still not complicated later, but this is the really easy to explain version which will help you no end.

  • Eat under 20g of carbs a day

  • Don’t worry about the scale. All it tells you is weight, it tells you nothing about body composition, even the “smart” scales.

  • Eat plenty of good food - fat and protein - while adhering to 20g/carbs/day. Don’t worry too much about macros and calories EXCEPT carbs. Keep them below 20g/day. (Prioritize the animal protein (i.e. not protein powder) - always start with protein in every meal, but don’t panic about it.) Your job is to get fat-adapted, so give your body the fuel you want it to use. Also, your appetite will vary - it’ll disappear, then it’ll come roaring back. Happens to most people, don’t sweat it.

  • ELECTROLYTES/SALT - KEEP THEM UP

  • Buy the meat you can afford - don’t stress about grass-fed, organic (con), etc… The worst meat is better than the best bread.

  • Fasting is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Works for lots, not for others. Don’t let tools tell you to use it before you’re fat-adapted and it makes sense.

  • This site has a search function (magnifying glass at the top of the page) and a newbies section - use them both, you’ll get a better variety of answers to your questions far more quickly that way. SERIOUSLY, THIS IS VERY USEFUL.[1]

That’s as difficult as it needs to be for a couple of months.

My good friend Terence (being friends with a Kiwi feels kinda dirty, but there you have it, keto makes for strange bedfellows) tells me this thing I have described above is called “dirty keto.” So yeah, do dirty keto, kids! :slight_smile:
Lots of Love, THE JUICE

Expanded version is HERE

[1]If you can’t find a useful answer after searching and reading for a while, we can help you a lot more if you tell us relevant data about yourself such as your reasons for doing keto, your weight/height/age/gender, a sample menu plan & any relevant health conditions.

#23

Welcome.

Those scales are only approximate to say the least and most flattering remark about them.

The most accurate number around here should be you tracking the 20g net carbs. Once that is taken care of everything else should fall in line. (It sound easy but I’ve been bumped out of ketosis due to some “hidden” (in plain site) carbs.). And I am as pedantic as they come! Never mind all fixed now.

The science says you should not be losing muscle mass on a keto diet. The percentages will “change” because you’re overall weight will change. But that’s an illusion or mathematical slight of hand. You are dividing by a small number …

Don’t worry, just track the 20g carbs and it should all be ok.

If you’re in a hurry to lose fat then keto+exercise is the fastest, and scientifically backed, way.

Hmm, I know what you mean. But once insulin starts ruling the roost it will stop fat burning! No fat burning for you! And you only have to go over your carb limit a tiny amount and bam - the switch is flipped. Keep that up for a few decades and we have metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, and the horrors that follow. So sorry to be blunt but no it wasn’t healthy. Sugar+wheat is practically toxic.