🍖 == 🍰

[richard]

#Low-carbohydrate diet does not affect intramyocellular lipid concentration or insulin sensitivity in lean, physically fit men when protein intake is elevated

Test of 67 hrs of a High Protein Low Carb (HPLC) diet vs Balanced diet vs Starvation. It’s not testing keto-adaptation, it’s testing to see if a high protein version of a low carb diet forces the body to adapt away from a glucose burning metabolism like a high fat version does.

#Primary Finding
In lean, healthy men, carbohydrate restriction in the form of 3 days of HPLC diet does not cause any change in circulating FFA concentration, whole-body insulin sensitivity, or vastus lateralis intramuscular lipid concentration compared with 3 days of mixed, carbohydrate-containing diet.

In other words when you have a High protein version of a low carb diet, you get so much glucose produced that your brain is getting sufficient glucose that your body doesn’t even need to adapt to glucose sparing.

The almost identical fasting plasma glucose and free fatty acid (FFA) concentrations after the HPLC and mixed diets, and the marked differences after starvation (Table 3) suggest that there was a continuing supply of glucose entering the blood throughout the HPLC condition.

To the authors’ knowledge, no study has measured the rate of gluconeogenesis or gluconeogenic enzyme activity in humans who have consumed a high-protein/very low carbohydrate (b5% of energy from carbohydrate) diet. However, where carbohydrate is not eliminated, increased protein intake up-regulates gluconeogenesis. Humans who routinely consume greater amounts of protein have increased overnight-fasted hepatic glucose output and an increased proportion of hepatic glucose output from gluconeogenesis (∼65% vs ∼45%) compared with controls matched for age, sex, body mass index, and energy intake.
##In other words; ==

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#Conclusion
Normal levels of plasma glucose, plasma Free fatty acids, Intra myocellular lipids (marker of Insulin resistance),and insulin sensitivity are maintained when an HPLC diet is consumed, despite other forms of carbohydrate deprivation producing marked changes in these measures.

My read is if you get high enough protein (65% of energy) on a low carb diet, it becomes a regular glucose burning diet and no longer meets many of the other standards of a low carb diet. Of course you don’t make ketones with FFA and insulin at those levels.

Here’s the paper in case you want to read it

green2010.pdf (363.2 KB)

[Pilotbob]

In English?

Low Carb High Protein is not a ketogenic diet?

or something else?

[richard]

n English?

Low Carb High Protein is not a ketogenic diet?

Nailed it.

When you have 65% of your energy from protein, it becomes a high glucose diet. Not ketogenic at all.

[Brenda]

Oh God I KNEW it! As an insulin resistant ketopian, I KNEW it mattered with myself!

This is GOLD

[AnnaLeeMI]

Yet another reason to keep my protein nice and low-moderate.

[Bacon]

OK so should I not participate in the Steak challenge?,it sounds interesting, but I really don’t want to derail my progress,all opinions welcome

[Pilotbob]

OK so should I not participate in the Steak challenge?,it sounds interesting, but I really don’t want to derail my progress,all opinions welcome

Fatty meats and keeping your protein low can still be done.

[Debby]

Yep, exactly what I did wrong in the Summer of 2008. Wanted to get “fat adapted” for endurance sports, after listening to a Jimmy Moore episode with a Half-Marathoner who was Zero Carb.

I went from vegetarian (well, octo, whatever it’s called haha) to ZC with local beef. Way too much protein!

BTW, anyone else here who got kicked off of J.M.'s forum for talking about Zero Carb at that time? I think it was in conflict with his commercial sponsors.

[Brenda]

@Bacon

I shall bravely honor my 30 day steak challenge commitment.

For science.
And out of curiosity.
And because STEAK

I will be monitoring with several devices including a ketonix

[Bacon]

Really want to because the only thing I like more than Bacon is Steak,I’m getting my first hba1c done on Thursday to see if it has improved since June when I got my first and only result which was not good,praying all the changes I have made will show some improvement,looking forward to see where I stand, I’m sure if I combined the Steak with the fasting I have been doing,it probably wouldn’t be that much Steak over the 30 days,I will evaluate my numbers Thursday and determine how to proceed,I have been reading about people improving their numbers on zero carb,so I guess it just comes down to where you are on the insulin spectrum

[abrahamreyes9]

65% of energy from protein cant really be sustained… I’m currently on ketogains macros and I average around 40% protein weekly according to MyFitnessPal data and I’m eating a substantial calorie deficit which would also make it even more unsustainable …

[Marty_Kendall]

Ketogains recommendations for maintenance is around 30%. 65% brortein is massive! Not sure how you’d get that from real food and without shovelling down protein powder.

[richard]

Chugging protein no doubt.

They don’t go into the method in the study, but you can use protein in lieu of starches in shakes … so that may be how they managed their isocaloric “meals”.

Frankly if I was in that study I’d personally be hoping to be randomized into the starvation cohort.

It’s just a 67hr study, not looking into sustainability but testing something that hasn’t to date been tested … initiating onto a high protein low carb diet. Fascinatingly it had a similar FFA and Insulin profile to a high carbohydrate diet and at that level of FFA and Insulin no ketones. I totally didn’t expect that.

[richard]

I don’t think anyone recommends unlimited amounts of protein, but it is interesting what happens to your blood at that level. There’s no apparent difference between that and a “SAD” diet in terms of free fatty acids and insulin.

That is completely counter intuitive because on other variants of low carbohydrate diets insulin goes down and that unleashes FFA from your fat cells. So I wonder what the transition between that level of protein and blood results, and more realistic amounts is … and whether there is a continuum or a threshold above which everything is SAD.

[erdoke]

I predicted it a long time ago. Higher protein = lower ketones. Of course, not everybody aims for high ketones, I just love their inflammation suppressing and mental clarity raising effects.

[Emacfarland]

I have heard that using grams of protein is more helpful than percentage of energy consumed so this incredibly high percentage must correspond with a lowered caloric intake, because I can’t imagine the amount of protein one would need to consume to get to 65%. They must have used something like a whey supplement because for most people to eat that much protein they’d have to consume a huge amount of lean meat. Which would be really unappetizing. I can’t imagine anyone here eating that much protein percent wise if they are eating a decent number of calories. Now, I have read that higher amounts of protein on a low carb diet can still be ketogenic when total calories are kept very low. This is because low energy intake is ketogenic. When you are eating 3000 calories and 65% is protein you obviously will not see changes in blood markers or an increase in ketones. But you might see them at that percentage when eating 800 calories. It’s relative.

[richard]

Imagine the smell of someone getting 65% of their energy from Protein.

https://goo.gl/hbpT2h

It’s not just the ammonia from de-amination, but Hydrogen Sulphide from the sulphur based amino acids. And I’m not sure what methylamine smells like, wikipedia suggests Fishy and ammoniac.

I would expect the smell of rotten egg gas, fish and ammonia outgasssing from the surface of their lungs would be pretty dire.

[Daisy]

Niiiice.

[Brenda]

No @Daisy…
It’s NOICE. Lol

[Daisy]

No mine is more of a drawn out nice whilst turning your nose up in distaste and looking down it at the same time!