Meat evening, glucose rise in the morning?

(Keta) #1

Dear all,
I have a phenomen I wish to understand. In trying to follow LCHF, I eat a small salad with meat in the evening. BG is hardly affected within the next 120 minutes. Next morning, however,my fasting BG is considerably higher than usual (20-30 points), My hypthesis is: it is the meat. Protein transformation during the night. Does anyone have similiar experiences?
If it is the meat, what would you recommend to do? Does this not mena that during the night, where the body should rest and insulin be low, a process takes place that is detrimental to low insulin?

(Omar) #2

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/dawn-phenomenon.html

(Jay AM) #3

The link above is more about diabetics but, normal people get it too. I was just explaining it to a friend and used this article.

https://idmprogram.com/dawn-phenomenon-t2d-8/

(TJ Borden) #4

Its universal. A friend of mine freaked out because he thought he was prediabetic. He doesn’t do keto, but after seeing my success with keto and IF, he did start doing the 5:2 fast and lost 30lbs (which is all he needed to loose).

Anyway, he had two doctor appointments in a row with readings high enough the doc told him he was pre-diabetic. Both appointments were first thing in the morning before work.

I told him about the morning phenomena and to make a couple appointments to retest later in the day. Since he did the 5:2 fast, a late afternoon appointment while fasted would be easy. The second round of tests, he was totally normal.

(Keta) #5

Thanks guys, but it is not the dawn phenomenon, as long as this is not affected by meat in particular. I compare fasting BG on one day with the next, and I am interested in when it rises considerably in comparison to other morning levels. I guess the dawn-rise kicks in regardless of one’s meal the evening before, right?

(TJ Borden) #6

Why are you thinking it’s NOT the dawn phenomenon? If you’re glucose is unchanged two hours after eating, it’s not suddenly going to jump up ten to twelve hours later.

The phenomenon is not a constant on its own. My normal afternoon fasting glucose is around 110 (I’d like it to be lower, but it’s slowly been dropping and I don’t get spikes from meals, so I’m fine with it). After a meal, I might hit 125. My morning reading can be anywhere between 105 and 140. That’s even during and extended fast. With nothing coming in for days at a time.

(Keta) #7

Well, say you have a fasting BG level of 5.0 to 5.5. Sometimes it is >6.I try to find out why this is the case. There is likely a cause for it. My suspicion is meat. So to clarify my hypothesis I wonder whether others have the same and found answers for them.

(TJ Borden) #8

Unless you’ve coated the meat in sugar. It CANNOT raise your glucose.

(Jay AM) #9

Dawn phenomenon happens regardless of what you ate the night before and it happens in everyone. It doesn’t always show the same reading for BG either from day to day. Someone who is insulin resistant will see this go down slower as well. If you think eating the night before isn’t helping the situation, you could stop eating a few hours before bedtime. Try to not test your BG after waking, give it a couple hours.

(Keta) #10

Dear Baytowvin, that is exactly my question. It seems it can because it has lots of Protein. And gluconeogensis takes time, so during the ngiht would work. Do you say that gluconeogensis would not rise bloodsugar, but only keep it from falling? To clarify if that is the case - does anyone else have similar experience?

(TJ Borden) #11

Gluconegenisis is demand driven. It’s not a product of excess protein.

(matt ) #12

Protein absolutely can lead to a rise in glucose. It’s just not instant like when carbs are consumed. Fat does not have a glucose/insulin response but protein certainly can.

But like others are saying I think this is just dawn phenomenon. Easy to find out. Eat earlier or just have some fat for dinner and see what’s what in the morning.

I have dawn phenomen and I have stopped giving a shit about it.

(Chris W) #13

GNG will kick in if your protein pool is high enough, and your glucagon gets high enough . I am not diabetic, but I can see this anytime I have a large protein intake by a drop in ketones for many hours sometimes a day.

I would like to have more than the minimal results I have as I don’t monitor BG but I have a normal fasting BG of around 65 this jumps to 90 after eating protien on the three occasions I have checked. Being in a fasted state before hand my glucagon should have been high.

(matt ) #14

65? Wow. That’s one hell of a nice BG

(Chris W) #15

Its been at 61 on 36 hour fast for my last blood work, a few months ago when I was just fat adapting. I am not regularly checking my BG I borrowed the meter to confirm a couple things so its highly likely my I am not doing completely correct. I also could see dawn effect, I was actually monitoring my BG pre and post workout.

(Chris W) #16

And I might add my PCP told me I was one step away from being diabetic, and should consider a life style change, that was a little over a year ago, when I saw her in january I was 3 months in and she was very happy with my A1c even though it was in the normal range then 5.4 I think. I started keto in nov of last year.

#17

Despite the collective wisdom that this is dawn phenomenon, I have also experienced a morning glucose elevation following ingestion of red meat the day before. Even bacon at brekky can lead to prolonged elevation of blood glucose until the next day.
I noticed this some weeks ago and have been keeping track of meals and relating it to morning glucose levels.
I have also noticed that my blood ketones seem to be affected in an inverse manner.

Interestingly this only seems to occur with mammalian protein with me and not fish, fowl or eggs.

It has happened often enough now that I am pretty confidently able to predict my morning sugar and ketone levels depending on what type of protein I consume the night before. It has become a little game I play (I know -I need to get a life !)

It is easy to dismiss some good observations as being attributable to a known phenomenon when we don’t understand what else can be causing it, but I reckon we need to keep an open mind on the reasons.

I also know that I gain weight or at least stall for a few days after eating mammalian meat.
Still not sure if this extends through to milk protein, but I no longer consume cow dairy due to adverse effects (GORD and bloating). Working on goat and sheeps milk which so far seem less reactive.

My working hypothesis as to why this happens is that for whatever reason, I have an inflammatory reaction to mammalian meats and that leads to increased glucose due to increased cortisol production. It would also explain why I have lost bugger all weight since January when I started Keto.

I am thrilled that someone else has observed this effect and it is not just me going slightly mad.

(Omar) #18

I do not think anyone here disputing the
fact that protin consumption can raise
BG.

It is “the morning” thing which confusing
the issue.

#19

I am not sure that it is specifically the protein leading to GNG causing BG to raise.
I suspect an inflammatory/allergenic type of response leading to BG levels elevated through increased cortisol levels.

I would be keen to hear from anyone with a bio background as to that possibility.

The reason I suspect this in my case (and it may well apply to others) is that the reaction I get to cows milk is very similar to that from gluten. As I am coeliac, I know my gluten reaction is an antibody/antigen mediated immune response - not a direct response to the macronutient per se.

The reaction to mammalian proteins (some - red meat and cows milk) seems similar in the physiological effect.

It would also explain my stubborn and persistent lack of weight loss despite being very committed to keto, and the fact that my ketones drop and sugars raise for about 24 hours post exposure.

N of 1, but hey, all good scientific studies start by an N of 1 saying 'That’s funny …"

(Omar) #20

interresting discussion