MAF Method

(ianrobo) #1

So I have mentioned this a few times now but deserves his own thread.

For us Fata adapted athletes it is the perfect compliment to our WOE and life and course can be done for swimming, cycling and running. The basic premise is you train the majority fo the time at heart rate (180-age) so for me that is 135 bpm and lower.

Now Peter Defty spoke to Brad Kearns about the impact of fat adaption on this and a fantastic podcast can be heard here - http://primalendurance.libsyn.com/90-peter-defty-talks-optimized-fat-metabolism

Peter’s main contention is that you can be up to 10 BPM higher and still be in the MAF range , so for me at 145bpm.

This method was conceived by Dr Phil Maffetone and is explained here - https://philmaffetone.com/what-is-the-maffetone-method/

But in simple terms it means building up you aerobic base so say for a 20 min run under 135 for me I go faster and faster. This base then gives you a massive launchpad for higher HR and power efforts and more importantly saves a lot of stress on your body that doing doing too much HIIT can harm you.

As I posted in my Year review on here I have been doing this since April and the results became apparent in the last 2-3 months.

Have a read and see if it suits you and it suits us massively because we are training as fat adapted athletes, we already very good at processing fat and the FASTER study shows when going higher, still fat burning from a big base !

HR during fat adapted running
Cycling In & out of ketosis
(Tim W) #2

I have been playing with this protocol as well. My issue is that temps impact hr in a major way and trying to stay in zone in the heat is slowing me waaaaaay down.

Looks like we listen to a lot of the same keto/athletic stuff, if you are ever in VA let me know and I’ll buy you some chicken wings and beer.

(Edith) #3

I’ve been trying the Maffetone method with my running since the end of July. I’m 51 but I can’t stand how slow I have to go to stay in my aerobic zone which is 120-130. My Fitbit calculated my aerobic zone to be 120 to 140 so I use that. That works better for me.

I only run 3 days a week and my progress has been very slow. I am still at 12’30" miles, But, I have been able to increase my distance more than I ever have before.

Btw, I am in northern Virginia.

Edith

(ianrobo) #4

I would love to visit the US again but the exchange rate is too much at the moment ha ha

(ianrobo) #5

same applies to @infromsea in that if you are fata adapted then we can push the MAF zone more. Yes at the start it will be strange but as you get fitter at this level then of course it will be stronger and stronger, this is all about pure fitness and having the min impact on your body.

This is the ride from today, first half easy in MAF, second half a bit over because of tiredness but still well below MAF + fat adapted total of 145.

(John) #6

I just haven’t been able to get on board. I want to, but so much of it does not make sense. First is the arbitrary 180-age, this is all very BMI to me. Next is that, for me, 140 seems way, way too low. It took me a bit to find these charts I have seen them in several places and they say of Zone 3

Individuals can remain in this zone for less than 1 hour. This zone is usually typical race pace.

When I go out for a nice long ride, nothing strenuous other than a couple hills, I average above this zone for 4 hours without stopping.
This means that I, as a relative beginner, have a super-ability to ride in Zone 4 for hours, or it is wrong. I’m leaning towards the latter.

2 charts to add from the FASTER study that I think help:
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Keto folks oxidize fat much more across the board, and much higher the higher the VO2 max. It shows our peak at ~80% where a non fat adapted shows a max at ~50. This tells me the +5 modifier is not enough, according to the zones on that page we should be 10-15 if not more.

image

This is showing across the duration of a 3 hour run that the participants stayed in an optimal fat burning zone for the duration. This is important to note:

The final chart depicts the mean fuel partitioning of the subjects over a 3 hour submaximal treadmill run at 65% of VO2Max.

According to the zones this is Zone 3 and should only be able to be maintained for 1 hour. They did it no problem for 3, and did not ever go into the anaerobic mode that MAF warns will happen.

(ianrobo) #7

It is meant to be low as it is meant to train harder with far less stress on your body. The 180 figure is meant to take you lower than you may think. However as I posted and the other info from I posted shows as far adspted people we can take it higher

(Edith) #8

So… if fat adapted people can train at a higher heart rate, and we don’t have access to sophisticated VO2 max testing to obtain our values, how do we know if we have moved into the anaerobic zone?

(ianrobo) #9

Vo2 max test is not needed, just that normal HR zones are worked out on max HR and then a % from there.

simply gif you use the MAF formula no need to worry about the rest of the zones, I abandoned training by Heart rate zones ages ago and now any Zone work is purely done on power. If you do not have power then basic HR zones can be used but Max HR is not a great measure to guide you on.

(ianrobo) #10

Something to think about is this analysis from my last 100 miler

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Note just how long I spent at Tempo/Z3 and if we believe being fat adapted is so good we can add on another 10BPM on non fat adapted performance then this is proof ?

(WanderinJack) #11

After a year I’m totally on the MAF koolaid. My MAF times have improved by about 30% and most importatnly I love running again. It’s simple and effective. The only thing I would caution about is that the free MAF app on the maffetone website poorly conceived and isn’t really the MAF method. The app is good at one thing and that is indicating when the heart rate goes outside of the MAF zone…and that is about the only thing it’s good at.

(ianrobo) #12

I looked at it and as you say it is pointless … no real need for it

(WanderinJack) #13

Since I went to a 20:2 IF and OMAD program bumping my fat from 65% to 80% I noticed that my MAF pace has slowed way down. Kind of puzzling to me. Is my body adjusting to the additional oxygen needed to metabolize the extra fat? Am I not eating enough during my OMAD (~1200 calories)?

#14

Hi,

Not a keto answer (I’m just starting), but a precision about this HR stuff.

The 180 formula or HRmax zones are an average. They may vary significantly between individuals. If you hear of athletes directly trained by Phil Maffetone, they’re lab tested. Also, Maffetone recognises that he tweaks his formula for older athletes… in other words, it’s a guesstimate for the masses.

If you are serious about training you should test yourself to know your zones and aerobic paces. You can go to the lab (expensive) or perform tests on the track (cheap, needs some experience) [1]. If you are a successful marathon runner with a time in line with your 5K, you can deduce your MAF pace, thus heartrate doing it on a track, from race pace [2]. No wonder a staple of marathon training is the hard long run at 95% of race pace :wink:

[1] For instance, the Fitzgerald test described in his book 80/20 Running (http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines-for-running/)
[2] Phil Maffetone, Marathon Pace Prediction (https://philmaffetone.com/original-research-marathon-pace-prediction/). Not that it breaks down for slower runners, where MAF can equal or be faster than MP.

(ianrobo) #15

I could have put this anywhere but I think this is as good a place as any and @richard you will be interested in this. You may know who Alistair Brownlee is, but for those that do not know he is one of the top triathletes in the word. Now South Africans tend to be the best as a country and a lot of them follow Tim Noakes, Alistair is from the UK competing with them. Not sure he is LCHF/Keto but lets look at his training here (as posted on primal endurance).

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Now the obvious point here is the total lack of what most people would expect - HIIT etc and when he says steady this for him 180-age would bentley be MAF … interesting eh ?? because the best advantage for MAF is of course being fat adapted … the only difference between him and amateurs like myself is he has more volume.

(Tim W) #16

Sadly, I’ve had to put the MAF protocol to the side for now.

I have been training using his principles whenever possible but I’ve had to switch back to pace, for now.

Recently, my area was covered in a foot of snow, sidewalks not passable, streets barely safe. I needed to complete a 24 mile training run to stay on plan, so I drove over to the nearest gym and proceeded to do 24 miles on a treadmill. (A miserable experience I’ve only had to do once before and hope to never do again).

I started the run using the MAF principles, as I’ve been doing for 90% of my training but, due to various factors such as lack of sleep the night before, my first couple of miles were so slow that, if I had kept up the protocol, it would have taken me about 8 hours to finish the run. My times always slow down using MAF, and he discusses this, it’s normal, but, I just couldn’t keep myself going that slow. I picked up my pace, finished the run and got home to begin recovery.

I’ve already committed to pacing a 5 hour marathon this March so I have to focus on meeting the pace time, it’s not tough to do but I can’t do it using MAF at this time. (Insider tip, volunteer to pace your local marathon if you have a few under your belt, you might get access to VIP tents/areas and get to run the race for free… yeah!).

So, my plan is run pace runs, finish up the marathon and THEN try MAF for 90 days, I’ve been using it for about 60 days now. If, at the end of 90 days of closely following the protocol I don’t see the expected results, I’m moving on.

Any suggestions for improving my plan?

(ianrobo) #17

interesting comments.

Right for me, it is about doing MAF 80% of the time, the likes of Brad Kearns etc still do speed seasons etc but do your vast majority of the training at MAF. Maybe you think could be 70-30, 60-40 etc but the real idea is to keep stress down.

I am not sure 24 miles on a trainer is good though, ouccchhh !!

but with Keto being much better for recovery that helps as well.

(Tim W) #18

Agreed, and it helps to be fat adapted and able to skip the sugar/gels/intake during the training sessions, I like not having to worry about grabbing things before I head out for a session.

(ianrobo) #19

and remember sugar only causes oxidative stress

(Tim W) #20

18 mile run today. I was able to get 12 miles in and keep the HR in the “maf zone”. I had to slow to 12:30 miles though so after that 12th mile I picked up the pace and ignored HR (didn’t want to spend next two hours covering six miles…).

I’m going to keep doing MAF during the week on my mileage runs and drop it during the long runs when the pace gets unbearable. I know I can pace the marathon tomorrow if need be, all miles between now and then are just to ensure that the recovery will be easier, just keeping the legs “distance ready”.

I’ll keep reporting my progress in case anyone else is considering this process.