Lumen - let the conversation begin 😋

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #9

Thanks. BG measurements are useful because glucose concentration in the blood directly determines a number of health parameters. Insulin (and glucagon!) measurements would also be very useful, but as far as I know there are no home devices available for it.

Ketone measurements, on the other hand, are a proxy for fat metabolism and even then only measure β-hydroxybutyrate concentration, the somewhat more stable storage form of acetoacetate, which is the actual ketone energy packet. β-hydroxybutyrate concentration does not tell us how much fat and/or ketones are actually being utilized.

Breath acetone (BrAce) measurements reflect the concentration of acetoacetate. This because BrAce along with CO2 are the resulting products of acetoacetate breakdown and utilization. BrAce is a better indicator of actual fat burn of acetoacetate, but the concentration in the breath is so dilute that it is very difficult to measure accurately. Also, the amount of acetone produced varies markedly and rapidly.

Yes, all of the above change constantly because our metabolism is a very dynamic system. It responds to inputs/outputs continuously, minute to minute.

A non-invasive device that accurately measures RER determines the ratio of carb and fat burn. No need to estimate fat burn based on the measurements of moving proxy targets! The possibilities and potential for this are very great indeed. For example: do you really need to eat sub-20 grams of carbs to stay in ketosis? What if you eat 50 grams and still have an RER of .7 or .71? That would be good to know, don’t you think? Or the opposite. Someone thinks “I can eat 50 grams of carbs and I’m still in ketosis”. Then discovers his/her RER is .8.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #10

I agree.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #11

I’ve received a couple of emails since ordering. My payment went through, no surprise there! Most recent email from Indiegogo came this morning stating that the very earliest ‘supporters’ will start getting their devices this month with the remainder of the ‘very early’ supporters getting their devices through out September. I’m an ‘early supporter’, although not particularly ‘very’. Hopefully, I’m still on track for a November shipment. We’ll see.

(PJ) #12

I’m glad you’re doing this, since I am poor right now. I hope you’ll share all the details with us. :slight_smile:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #13

I certainly shall!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

Status Update:

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your patience.

The super early bird and early bird backers will be shipped in two batches, the first of which started in September and will continue until the end of November. The second batch will begin shipping during December until the end of January.

Based on your pledge and region, your Lumen is included in the second batch of shipping.

We know that for many of our backers, the wait to receive their Lumen device has been long. While new users will need to pay a subscription fee, as a token of our appreciation for the faith in Lumen as an early backer, we announced that all Lumen Indiegogo backers will be provided with a FREE lifetime membership to the Lumen app.

If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to reach out to us.

Have a happy and healthy day,
Lexi

Mike's Excellent Zero Carb Beer Adventure :beer:
(Jenna Ericson) #15

I was wondering about this…was thinking about asking for it as a Christmas present from my husband, but on their website after you click “buy” it says “Due to high demand, orders made today will ship in March” :frowning:

I’m curious to hear about it when you get it. I was a little confused about how it works. I thought that in order to get your RQ and know if you are burning fat or glucose you need to know the ratio of how much oxygen is going into your lungs vs CO2 out. Their website seems to only talk about measuring CO2 out, so I’m not sure how they calibrate it to you as an individual. Looking forward to your review!

(Windmill Tilter) #16

I’m not really sure I understand the use case for this if someone is on keto. I own an indirect calorimeter that also measures RER/RQ but I never bother to use for function. All I’m interested in is RMR and VO2 max. Also, the RQ readings during extended fasts were nonsense; the algorithms weren’t programmed for that.

If you’ve been on keto for a while you’re pretty much burning fat. You already know your RQ! I’m not an expert on the subject obviously; what am I missing? Is it for keto athletes that do carb cycling or something?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

Fat burn. Ketones are only an indirect measure of fat burn and fat adaptation. They don’t tell you how much and how efficiently you’re utilizing fats for fuel. I think using RER/RQ is probably a better way to determine both fat burn and efficiency. There is also a wide range of opinions and claims on this forum about how much carbs one can consume and remain in ketosis/fat burn. The device will help to pin down that controversy, I think.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

Yes, but the more important ratio to measure is CO2 : O2 out. Since burning fat produces less CO2 per unit of O2 the ratio of both in exhaled air can be used to determine RER. See this:

(Windmill Tilter) #19

If you"ve been on keto for at least a week your RER is between .7 and .8, and it stays there until you fall off the wagon. The chart would basically be a squigly line between .7 and .8 for as long as you stay under 20g carbs per day wouldn’t it?

The other problem is that the algorithm will probably have been programmed with an emphasis around an RER of 1.0 under the assumption that people eat carbs. My indirect calorimeter has this problem. I’ve gotten back readings over .8 while 80hrs into an extended fast. Not humanly possible. It cost $12k and had just been recertified by the lab. Even so, I don’t think the results are reliable at the lower end of the scale. Maybe the Lumen will be better, if so that would be very interesting.

My understanding is that the utility of RER increases as carbs do. If you’re a DASH diet carb burner and fat is 5% of your dietary calories, and you’re trying to lose weight, RER will tell you a little. If you’re on keto, it won’t be able to tell you whether consuming bodyfat, muscle or dietary fat & dietary protein. Or does the Lumen claim to do so? Is there some other biomarker it tests for that allows this?

(Windmill Tilter) #20

That would definitely be interesting. What calculation would you use to do this? I’m a bit of an RER noob, but I do love to experiment. Is there a paper you can link?

(Jenna Ericson) #21

This is what I would like to find out. You would think that if one is eating 70 or 75% of calories from fat for an extended period of time that they would be burning fat for fuel a majority of the time, but I think there are other confounding factors. For example, cortisol or the presence of an immune response could create a demand for glucose. I would like to know if it’s possible for gluconeogenesis to create enough glucose to cause the body to switch it’s main fuel source to carbohydrates even in the absence of dietary carbs. I don’t have any evidence of this, and maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but I think it might be possible. It would be really interesting if, for example, I were to try this product and find that despite eating less than 20 grams of carbs per day my RER was closer to 1.0 than .7 or .8 while being sick with a cold, for example, or after eating something that caused an inflammatory response.

(Windmill Tilter) #22

Anything is possible. All the research I’ve read and my own n=1 supports what I said above, but I didn’t mean to suggest that universal.

(Windmill Tilter) #23

This seems improbable.

(Jenna Ericson) #24

It sounds like at least part of your n=1 might support my hypothesis :stuck_out_tongue: I’m mostly kidding because I obviously don’t know the whole story, but I suspect it is possible for your RER to be over .8 while 80 hours into a fast. Everyone talks about autophagy during fasting, so you could be turning old proteins into glucose to provide some energy for your brain and red blood cells. Certain hormones like human growth hormone go up during fasting and I think this might also create a demand for glucose.

Exercise can also cause your body to use glucose. If our evolutionary ancestors had to outrun a saber toothed tiger, they’d have a jolt of cortisol and glucose to give them quick energy to run away. I assume they would use the glycogen in their muscles first, but then the extra glucose that had been created would go into the muscles to replace that loss. Often today when people experiences stress it is more chronic and doesn’t necessarily involve physically running for one’s life, so glucose is not depleted.

As much as I think keto is a great way to heal one’s metabolism, I still have questions and the more n=1’s the better. I just think we should be careful that the cognitive dissonance that we’re all susceptible to doesn’t get the better of us :slight_smile:

(Windmill Tilter) #25

RER or RQ is something they track closely during fasting studies. They use $$$ metabolic carts for this purpose. The RQ of a fasting subject is around ~0.7 after the first couple days, and it stays that way until fasting ceases regardless of whether it’s a few days or a few months. Every study done has had exactly the same result.

That said, there are exceptions due to genetic abnormalities but it’s pretty rare. One example is that fasting is lethal for most inuit and other folks indigeonus to the artic circle. They die very quickly if they don’t have food. Read the article, it’s kind of fascinating!

(Jenna Ericson) #26

That video was super interesting! I vaguely remember hearing about this genetic variation in Inuit populations and I liked the deep dive. I’m not sure how much evidence there is to back up Chris’s conclusion, though. Sounded like his theory was that Inuit populations developed this impaired ability to create ketones because of the threat of ketoacidosis. I think it’s just as likely that being in a constant state of ketosis might have made it hard to hold on to body fat, which would be bad in such a cold environment. I also think Inuit peoples must have been able to get enough glycogen from organ/muscle meat to keep their brain fueled, hence less need for ketones as fuel. Otherwise, if gluconeogensis and ketogenesis were both impaired, how would they feed their brains on a mostly meat diet?

I couldn’t find the studies you were referring to regarding fasting RER/RQ, but would be interested to see them!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #27

The ‘arctic variant of cpt1a’ take away: ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism not the most important thing. Fat burning and fat adaptation are the most important things. We already know this. Defining ‘ketosis’ as the production of ketones may not be applicable in this specific situation. These people are predominantly burning fat, not glucose. Because they do not have carbs to eat. They are producing sufficient glucose via gluconeogenesis. So Masterjohn’s conclusion is a non sequiter. It also illustrates why ‘chasing ketones’ is a waste of time. The most important thing is fat burn (which hopefully the Lumen will help determine under all circumstances). When Masterjohn claims that our ancestors were not in ketosis most of the time, he has to explain what exactly they ate as an alternative to fat/protein. Plants of the Pleistocene were mostly indigestible cellulose and thus were not a viable alternative.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #28

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