Lowering Fat

#1

I have read and heard that once fat adapted that lowering fat intake will help burn more fat storages. I have been in ketosis for 6 months with only one 2 week break, and I am wondering if this is the case. I also hear and read the opposite side of the coin where the concept is eat as much fat as you can until you aren’t hungry. So logically it makes sense that if my body needs more fuel, and I dont give it ingested fat, then it will go after storages. Any help is very much appreciated.

(Larry Lustig) #2

They don’t have to be opposite sides of the same coin.

If you are fat adapted and have substantial body fat, you should be able to lower the amount of food you eat and not get hungry. Or, rather, not really hungry by which I mean your brain may be telling you “time for food” but your body isn’t. Being able to distinguish between habitual eating and hunger is something that many people (I’ll just speak for myself, though) are unable to do while eating a carbohydrate based diet but find they’re able to do without too much trouble after a month or two of keto eating.

(migorstmarseille) #3

This article from Dr. Jason Fung gave me some insight about how eating too much fat can be detrimental to weight loss. It helped me see some gaps in my diet that need some adjustment. Being dairy free this month has helped solidify some of what he’s talking about in this blog post:

(Cathy) #4

I was intrigued by Dr. Fung’s article today and this question of ‘too much’ dietary fat. I came to the conclusion that eating dietary fat while fasting might be counter to weight loss but the suggestion that a person should reduce fat while eating keto does not follow in my mind.

Just to clarity, I am coming from the context of eating keto and not fasting. I do both. When I am not fasting, I am eating keto and that means that the vast majority of my macros are fat. I eat to satiation. If I took the suggestion that I should be reducing my fat consumption while eating, that would mean to eat to satiation, I would have to increase either carbs or protein or both. This is counter to keto eating in my opinion.

On the other aspect of fasting and adding fat, I would agree that makes sense especially if eating fat bombs or drinking fatty coffee gives way to hunger. I don’t ever eat fat bombs so I can’t speak to that food but I do drink keto coffee and that is a meal replacement of sorts for me. I may consider drinking black coffee on fast days to see if it makes a difference for me.

Sorry for the long winded response. I was thinking about this subject and love having the opportunity to put my thoughts in writing…:blush:

(Jason Webb) #5

I would also like to point out that this is not a 100/0 type of situation, particularly as you move closer to your ideal weight. At one point I got stuck in the mindset that “if cutting 50g of fat out today is good, then cutting 100g or more is better” and that would lead to accelerated weight loss. When Richard presented the knowledge in this episode:

it really opened me up to the idea that your stored body fat is not a single tank that you can tap off of as needed, but individual cells that can only give a small amount each over a given amount of time. As I rolled up to my current weight I gradually increased my fat intake to match what I was able to supply from my “on board” storage, and definitely felt a lot better doing so.

(Adam Kirby) #6

See this is quite confusing, because now it’s really hard to define what “too much” fat is.

#7

I think that’s because the definition changes for each person and for the same person over time.

If you’re in ketosis you’re getting enough fat to support the generation of ketones by the liver from fat, but if you’re not losing weight, you might be getting more than your body needs so it isn’t dipping into the body fat to meet the demand. This assumes that extra carbs and elevated insulin aren’t confounding factors.

(Jason Webb) #8

Yup, that’s why I like the method of step 1- get your carbs right. Step 2- dial in that protein. Step 3-find the fat level that keeps you full and happy, but still trending downward on the scale/inches/whatever. Don’t try to get them all set right off the bat.

(Marty Kendall) #9

If you are diabetic you can use your glucose as a guide to how much dietary fat you need. As blood glucose levels stabilise you can wind back the dietary fat and let the fat come from your body. If you are losing weight / restricting energy intake you should ideally make sure the food you eat has the maximum amount of nutrients for to avoid cravings. One you’ve reached your goal weight then add the dietary fat back in.

(Notice that none of these food lists contain added sugars or grains).

#10

I eat plenty of fat, but I always feel hungry, anyone else in the same boat? I don’t exercise much, just some short bike rides

#11

@ketochamp, read the articles Marty posted above that he wrote. I learned from him that it is so important to eat mostly nutrient dense foods to avoid hunger. I learned that while we need fat, it is highly energy dense, but not always nutrient dense. He has great lists of foods as well that will help you make the right choices based on your goals.

(Michelle) #12

This was a good episode today addressing Maria Emmerich’s recent article about ‘if you eat too much fat, you will gain fat’. The doc dismisses it (cites his own n=1 experiment) and talks about hormones (processing protein and carbs), not how much fat you eat. I think eat to satiety is still the preferred method.

http://ketotalk.com/2017/02/keto-talk-55-high-vs-moderate-fat-for-weight-loss-testosterone-replacement-therapy-swollen-lymph-nodes-ideal-carb-intake-dehydration-sleep-and-ketosis/

(Larry Lustig) #13

Thinking back, the first few months I was eating keto I was telling people that I was hungry all the time – partly as a joke (“It’s easy but, yeah, I’m hungry all the time”) but partly because I felt I was. I’m probably eating less food now, but I’m not hungry all the time. I don’t think the way I’m feeling has changed that much, just what I call “hunger”.

#14

For me, I need to maintain a fasting and feeding window. If I snack all day, my hunger increases. If I don’t, hunger disappears. So, for example, if I go to costco and walk by one of their sampling kiosks, I’d rather not try any samples. Because, it will induce hunger. The smell of food doesn’t make me hungry, just as soon as I put something in my mouth, it sends signals to my brain I guess that food is coming and expects a meal.

(David) #16

I get this phenomenon as well. I can sometimes get well into the afternoon at the weekend on nothing more than coffee (regular, instant, black) and not be hungry. I will open the fridge numerous times to have a look in there though.

Still not hungry, just out of habit I think, and the moment I grab a bacon snack out of the bowl, BAM! it’s meal time!.

(Jo Lo) #17

Remember that ketosis is a response to the lack of carbs, not an abundance of dietary fat.

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #18

In an interview with the Dudes, Ted Naiman said something similar.

Ted Naiman is also wary about the trend towards encouraging reduced proteins in the keto world.

But he said something which helped me straighten out my thoughts a bit on how much dietary fat to take in: he said if you look at the usual natural sources of dietary fat, they usually come with about an equal amount of protein (in grams, not calories). So providing you are getting e.g. the fattiest meat, you may not really have to add much fat at all to get to satiety.

I think I have been going out of my way to add fat, when it may not always have been necessary.
And I’ve been reducing protein, and maybe a little bit too much. Some people will argue BTW that it’s protein that satisfies you, while in the low-carb/keto world, it’s usually said that it’s the fat that satisfies you. However, maybe the key is really that it’s the right combination of fat + protein that is most satisfying.

(Marty Kendall) #19

Note that Nally mentioned that he lost a ton of weight with unlimited bacon, sausage and egg for a while. Then he had to change tack to keep losing weight.

As Ted says, many people do great initially on a very high fat approach until their blood glucose and insulin levels normalise. At that point, food quality and quantity starts to matter more.

"I have tons of patients who absolutely plateau out on this diet. Everyone who goes on LCHF loses a ton of weight, and then hits a plateau. This is extremely common. Almost universal.

"If you eat enough fat, the flow of fat into your adipose sites will equal the flow of fat out of your adipose sites and you’re just going to plateau.

"My number one priority is nutrient density. Eat less fat bombs and instead eat the highest nutrient density foods you possibly can and then more of the fat that you’re burning comes from your internal body stores.

“I recommend really high fat diets for people who are really glucose dependent to help them get fat adapted. Then, once you have reached your ideal body weight you have to eat a high fat diet then as well because you’re burning fat. But there is a period in the middle when you’re plateaued when you do want to eat less fat because you want your fat to come off stored body fat.”

(Jo Lo) #20

True.
I went to Ted Naiman as a patient, asking about high blood sugar while on keto. He was extremely helpful, and one of his suggestions was to eat a “steak and eggs diet” because natural meats and eggs have the correct fat/protein ratio (roughly 50/50).
He said don’t eat fat bombs or push fat and oil by itself if your intent is to lose body fat, because fat and oil by itself is pure energy with low nutritional value. BTW I specifically asked about MCT oil and he said not to take it if you want to lose fat. Think nutritional density, he emphasized.

It’s confusing that this is a different message from what we get from the Dudes (with due respect!), and others.

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #21

I’ve been very impressed by him in interviews (e.g. with Ivor Cummins) and what he says usually makes sense to me.

(And my favourite breakfast for a long time was steak and eggs! (I’ve heard this is also an Australian favourite). I don’t eat breakfast as such nowadays, but I’ll happily have steak and eggs around the middle of the day, or whenever my first meal is).