Different keto gurus give different advice on what they claim to be the right way to do keto. I’ve heard both sides be presented as the right way to do keto regarding protein/fat. So who is right?
I have really lost most all of the weight I needed to lose and am not obsessing about that last 10 pounds. I do keto now for the health benefits outside of a weight loss.
I must admit that in nearly a year on keto I have not counted anything, neither carbs nor calories, protein or fat. I know where I should be at and I just ballpark it meal by meal, food by food. In this year I have never overtly cheated like by eating a candy bar or a Big Mac.
Plus I don’t obsess about being perfect on keto and believe the term “dirty” keto is simply judgmental. I do keto the best I can considering I am poor and depend upon food stamps and food pantries for most of my food. Any keto you do is better than no keto at all as imperfect as it may be.
Lower fat, higher protein method
I will offer what may be an unnecessary caveat to the idea that “any keto” is better than none. If by keto, all you mean is simply eating plenty of fat, then no, I would disagree that “any keto” is healthier. You’ve got to strictly restrict the dietary carbohydrate intake to get your mitochondria burning ketones. Otherwise, you’re in a dangerous zone.
On the contrary, if one is eating a lot of carbs, then that dietary fat is not going to be healthy. It’s going to be like mixing nitro with glycerine (= TNT). The carbs will get metabolized and the dietary fat will get stashed away for the lean winter that never comes… and it will clog up organs, adipose tissue, muscles, affect brain function, systemic inflammation, etc.
If I’m wrong on this point, please let those with greater expertise chime in and set me straight. [OPEN REQUEST]
I caution many folks who say they want to eat a bit more “keto style” but then also continue eating a lot of dietary carbs: they’re playing with fire. If you’re eating enough carbs to never reach a reliably steady state of metabolic ketosis, you’re far better off on a low fat diet … not a high fat diet.
I’m sure that any of us could find a keto guru who would support our view of what the proper keto should be.
Keto consistently gets defines a LCHF: Low Carb, High Fat. Compared to what? The Standard American Diet. I certainly eat very low carb compared to the SAD and I eat high fat compared to the SAD. I stand by my statement that even imperfect keto is better than the SAD at the heart of how keto is defined. Even just a low carb diet of under 100 grams of carbs is better than the SAD.
Exactly how would eating a lot of carbs even remotely be considered keto? Consuming a lot of carbs is antithetical to eating a keto diet and could never be called keto anyways.
@Elox Okay, perhaps we’re already on the same page? …
My point is that if you’re not in a state of metabolic ketosis, then no, eating the amounts of fat that represent the mainstay of a typical keto diet would be rather unhealthy - and worse for your health than eating far less dietary fat.
And if you’re not sufficiently restricting dietary carbs then, no, you won’t likely remain in a state of metabolic ketosis.
LCHF can work wonders. Otherwise, HCLF is viable for many folks. HFHC is basically = SAD.
Is this consistent with what you were saying in the thread above?
My point is that high carb in no way can be called keto and is a low fat diet although there is a vegan keto who has a YouTube channel.
I consider that anyone who is even imperfectly doing a LCHF diet which falls within the general parameters of the definition of keto is better off than not doing it at all, that they will reap many of the benefits of keto although likely not as many as those who preach perfect keto.
I have likely been in a state of ketosis for most of the past year, never counting calories or carbs, fat or protein, but staying within keto parameters. I am fat adapted, did a 72 hour fast last week, and in the middle of another one right now with no problems or hunger and I’ve maintained my weight loss for 10 months now, +/- a pound or 2 either way. It’s not perfect keto but I’m satisfied with the results.
How people define a low-carbohydrate diet varies with their perspective. There are scientific studies in which “low-carb” means a carbohydrate intake in the range of 150-190 grams a day, which we on this site would not consider “low” at all.
Phinney and Volek, who coined the term “nutritional ketosis,” generally consider a low-carb/ketogenic diet to limit carbohydrate intake to around 20-50 grams a day.
In practical terms, a low-carbohydrate diet is any amount of carbohydrate intake beneath your carb tolerance threshold; i.e., an intake low enough to avoid damage from (a) elevated serum glucose and (b) elevated serum insulin. Typically, such a limited carbohydrate intake is also sufficient to permit ketogenesis in the liver, since it is elevated serum insulin that inhibits ketogenesis.
Are you going with Rob Goodwin’s suggestion for cutting by eating:
- 1 - 1.5g of protein / lb of lean mass
- 0.5g of fat / lb of lean mass
- 30g of net carbs
I’m experimenting with lowering fat as well but haven’t got THAT low on the fat side. How do you find your energy levels? Are you afraid of possibly slowing down your metabolism by going that low?
For anyone interested in a (non-‘techie’) deep dive.
I’ve been keto for four years. When I first started, I tried the higher fat version, but I was always hungry. When I upped the protein, I definitely found it more satiating. I think I need the extra nutrients from eating higher protein. Fat does not have as many vitamins and minerals as the protein portion. I think one problem with keto is that for women especially who don’t eat a lot of calories, the high fat really cuts down on the amount of vitamins and minerals we get from the food.
1600 calories with 70% of calories from fat, leaves only 480 calories to get all your daily nutrient needs. That’s not a lot of calories. Everything you eat needs to be a nutritious as possible. It can’t hurt to experiment with your protein. At some point we all settle into what works for us until it doesn’t. Then we tweak.
Btw, for what it’s worth, Over the past several months I added B vitamins to my daily supplements and I have way more energy.
Interesting analysis, Edith. That makes a lot of sense.
I wonder if this is also true for leaner men? I guess it can be true for anyone who eats a certain amount of calories.
I have stopped counting tbh. I got too overwhelmed. I was trying to do everything at once. But I must be in ketosis because I have really tried with the intuitive eating over the past week or so. The last couple of days I’ve been on OMAD. It will be interesting to see what happens with the weight loss; though I must confess I’m a bit confused with how OMAD works vs eating more… but I’m trying not to think about it 
His calculations are by bodyweight not lbm, so if yours are coming out low that may be why, but more or less ya. I tweaked them a little because I know my RMR from having it tested so I did his math, then trimmed evenly. Other thing he only sometimes mentions is he doesn’t count his preworkout carbs in that since you’ll burn them during the workout, so you’d have your 30g, plus your pre-workout stuff.
Most of the time they’re fine, but sometimes I definitely feel it. But in the past of bulks and cuts you pretty much always feel a little crappy in a cut so it’s to be expected. I’m always concerned of a metabolic slowdown since I’ve done that pretty bad in past, so usually once a week I’ll have a high calorie day, right now I’m cheating the system by taking T3 to keep my RMR way up so it couldn’t slow down if it wanted to but typically the high calorie bursts seem to do the trick.
This is all so interesting… there’s obviously so much science around it and I’m trying to get my head around it but for the time being the biggest thing I’ve noticed is that the lack of carbs has totally destroyed my appetite, which is amazing because I’m a person who has struggled with food for years. I’m a snacker (of junk food obviously).
Someone at work brought me 71 bars of chocolate for my birthday (don’t ask…) and I’ve not even been tempted by a single one… and have fasted through the days with all of it sat behind me…
I’m not saying it will last but for the time being, I am amazed that such a relatively small change really (ie cutting carbs out) has so drastically reduced appetite. And actually, minimising liquid dairy has taken me the extra step from two meals a day to one… maybe the carbs again… That to me is incredible.
Thanks. Agreed on the vitamins. I used to be vegan for a bit and vit b 12 is essential. I got used to taking it after that!
I couldn’t resist writing my reactions… It may be not helpful or quite on topic at all but it’s reaction to some comments…
I am not sure even about this (it may be true for many but not for everyone)… My LCHF woe seemed very very healthy to me even if I was pretty far from ketosis. Many people experienced this. For me, the less carbs is the better, except maybe when I go too low for my hedonist mind 
My body would thrive on carnivore, it seems.
But it seems I have a natural ~80g net carbs limit and I feel great below and not above (it’s not that simple, it matters what is my carb source but if I eat in my health conscious hedonist way, this is a very noticeable limit). And it’s way over my ketosis carb limit, it’s very noticeable. At least it was before keto, it’s hard to tell now, I don’t have water weight changes, I already am fat adapted…
And… HCHF is way better for me than HCLF as I would spontanously combust or something on the 3rd day of the latter after my hedonist inner self died. Low-fat is my room 101 but if not, HCLF surely is. I can do 1-2 low-fat days but only on quite low-fat. More days if fasts count but I don’t do EF nowadays.
What’s more, I know someone thriving on HCHF but it seems it’s not very common… But who knows? Most people do a clearly unhealthy HCHF and any HCHF woe is unhealthy for many of us but it’s not always horrible. Whenever I do a carby day, I eat very very fatty as it’s ideal for my body under those circumstances (carbs aren’t for me but if I eat them, I usually need way more fat than on keto to avoid or diminish carb poisoning. fat is a miracle worker after carbs, at least in my own case). I am not a good example, of course as HC isn’t good for me. I can merely handle it occasionally, without any problem. But I need lots of fat for that.
Eating lots of carbs while eating lots of fat has NOTHING to do with keto. It’s not keto-like at all, it’s what the normal, not caring about their woe people do… Keto is very low-carb, fat has nothing to do with it, it’s just logical most ketoers eat fatty but low-fat keto is a thing, fasting is keto too… (Lack of) carbs are most important in keto, not fat.
Definiitely not. There are zillion HCHF styles. Not like I know what excactly SAD is but I deny I ever ate like that. I ate HCHF, my own style. It wasn’t good in my case but at least it was very nutritious even without meat and I was healthy. Not as okay as I could be, probably as low-carb felt loads better. keto didn’t do a thing except giving me fat adaptation. I couldn’t lose fat ever, my energy stayed low etc. Giving up almost all plants and adding meat, well that was the big thing 
Not ketosis.
Is any keto better than no keto? Not everyone and not to any length, sometimes we need to go deeper to get any benefits (but in the beginning a too relaxed keto may be useful and the only chance for keto, I am sure I needed those times but they weren’t enough long term). And not everyone has problems with more carbs, some people even function better with more.
I am sure but of course, can’t prove that some people need high-carb, be it low-fat or high-fat… (It’s probably more common when someone is very active. But if someone can’t handle much fat and don’t need to lose fat, that easily may need more carbs too.) Many people clearly can handle way more carbs than others. Even humans aren’t all alike regarding their ideal or healthy woe.
WHAT.
(I definitely don’t ask just try to wrap my head around it. I repetitively fail. SEVENTY. ONE.)
I saw such abnormally low-calorie stuff (well my lean mass is small and I am used to eat much :)) while cutting… It’s clearlty not for just anyone. If I wanted to do this low-fat keto style, I still would eat way more as 1100-1200 kcal wouldn’t work for me. I have lots to lose but not much enough to be able to afford such a huge energy deficit… And I would do way less carbs, probably below 10g as 30g carbs is so much, they make me hungry, I need a ton of fat to keep me satiated… Clearly people are all different, we need our own numbers even if we choose a fixed protein:fat ratio… I know I can do anything between 0.5 and 2.0 though I never strayed too much from around 1.0 longer term… But never noticed it matters to me if I eat protein or fat (satiating types) after I already had a generous amount of both and only need energy, others may have different experiences… The only reason I don’t try a higher-protein approach is that it would be wastefully, needlessly high protein and my tastes and habits point to fattier protein sources. It would be fun to try though. I really want to experiment with them, just for 1-2 days… But it’s hard. Lowering my fat intake? Can’t imagine how (well I can imagine but I can’t realize it). Oh well.
I used a recent DEXA scan results but that can be pricey (~$100/scan).
Some folks have access to a scale that also calculates (poorly) body fat. It sends a mild current up and down your body (you don’t feel anything) and measures the resistance. Better scales have you hold a bar and you stand on pads for a better measurement. I just use these results to see trends.
The least expensive route is to use the US Navy calculator:
That explains it, I was looking at lbm. I’m still just over 30% bf so I figured that, at least for me, lbm was a better measurement since I don’t need to worry about feeding and repairing fat cells.
I didn’t know that he didn’t count the pre-workout carbs. Good to know. I took your advice from a previous posting and added a tbl of dextrose to my post-workout protein and it made a HUGE difference. I’m taking dextrose out this week to see if I can still lift as high/much without it.
I was going to go for a higher calorie day once every two weeks or so. If you’re seeing good results doing it once a week, I might follow suit.
Thanks for the response!
I did this. It told me I was obese 
but I am going to follow this. I’ve found that I need to incorporate protein shakes because it’s 150 grams protein a day for me (1.5 x 100lbs lean mass) which is very high.
What type of thing do you eat to get the % right?