Lower calorie diet more Ketogenic?

(Kitty) #1

Ryan Lowery’s website (Ketogenic.com) recommends a lower intake of daily calories being more Ketogenic. This is for weight maintenance, NOT weight loss. Does anyone have any science/opinions on this?

(MooBoom) #2

Where does he claim this? Can you provide the specific context/claim?

A quick look at the web link provided and I can see he’s monetising keto. This automatically makes me sceptical.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #3

Sounds backward right? :thinking:

(Carl Keller) #4

The less you eat, the more that ketones made from body fat are going to have to pick up the tab for energy requirements. I’m honestly not sure how you can not lose weight when eating at a caloric deficit while in ketosis. And then there’s the risk of metabolism compensating for what it perceives as starvation.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #5

I read a bunch of the link. He also talks about limiting protein so it doesn’t turn into glucose, controversial for sure. Overall interesting intro to keto but I didn’t agree with all of his ideas.

(Alec) #6

First quote that I read:

“### What is ketosis?

Ketosis is a metabolic state in which your body generates and utilizes ketones as its primary energy supply. Ketosis is the foundation for a Ketogenic lifestyle.”

This is just untrue… our primary energy source is fat, and ketones are a by-product that are also used. This guy clearly is making stuff up and doesn’t understand the basics of ketosis. I would be very sceptical about everything stated in here after this statement.

#7

He’s fairly highly qualified actually & has done quite a lot of research on keto.

(Alec) #8

And doesn’t know what our primary fuel source is on keto? Errrrrr no.

(Running from stupidity) #9

Can’t see anything wrong with the quote you provided - if you’re not running on glucose you’re running on ketones (this being a SUPER-simplified view of the basis of the energy cycle). Not a whole lot of other choices.

#10

I think you’ll find he knows a lot more than most.

(MooBoom) #11

I think you’re just defining fuel source differently. From the bodies perspective, the ketones are the energy supply and they are derived from fat.

When we are sugar burners, it’s glucose that is our primary energy supply (derived from carbohydrate).

Both macronutrients need to be converted into a utilisable fuel source in order for our body to be able to use it.

An overview: https://www.ruled.me/ketones-everything-need-know/

(Alec) #12

You guys have made me think about this and go and do some more research. And I am sorry if I was too dismissive further up the thread. Maybe I am the one who is ignorant.

Quote from that article:

“In fact, when you are keto-adapted, ketones can supply up to 50% of your basal energy requirements” [my emphasis].

My understanding is that ketones are only made in the liver, and the muscles are quite capable of using fatty acids for fuel directly, and thus not creating or using ketones. I am happy to be proved wrong on this, but I had a long discussion on this last year with @PaulL, and I thought the conclusion was that most energy consumed was in the form of fatty acids directly in the muscles, and not ketones which can only be sourced from the liver.

Does anyone have some definitive primary sources to answer the question?

(Kitty) #13

Wow! You are all way over my head, but this would explain why my ketones can be high, yet I don’t have much energy.

(Kitty) #14

It says it in the Ketogenic calculator. Here is the exact quote:
“Your total calorie levels are likely lower than most other calculators you have used in the past. We do this because we recommend a slightly lower caloric intake when following a ketogenic diet.”

(MooBoom) #15

Thanks for that @Ashlee . I’m not sure he’s saying keto should be lower calorie, or works better when it’s lower calorie. I think what that statement means, is the calculator they provide recommends a lower calorie intake overall than other keto calculators may recommend.

As to why they recommend that, if it’s not covered in the site information, why not contact the author and ask why a lower calorific intake is required? I’m sure those following this thread would be interested in the answer.

For what it’s worth, I am not a fan of any sort of CICO doctrine infiltrating a keto way of eating. When it’s attached to someone trying to sell something, even more cause to be wary.

(MooBoom) #16

I think I learned something today too!

The body runs on three primary fuels, but we can measure only two of them ourselves. We can measure ketones and blood glucose, but the one that provides the majority of energy in people on ketogenic diets is the one we can’t measure: fatty acids (fats).

taken from: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/09/measuring-ketones.html

(Alec) #17

Aha! I did think that was the case. But when both you and @juice said I was wrong, I was seriously doubting my mind model of how all this works.

I am hoping that when @PaulL wakes up, he is going to confirm or correct my understanding. He usually knows.

(MooBoom) #18

Well I sure was missing a piece of the puzzle. Didn’t know that fatty acids could be directly used as a fuel source, and have been labouring under the misapprehension that it was either glucuse/ketones!
Always good to learn something new, even if I got thoroughly schooled in the process :joy:

(Alec) #19

Ah, here comes @atomicspacebunny, she usually provides the definitive references and research. I love it that you can see people responding :joy::joy:

(Bunny) #20

What is interesting is if your not in ketosis then you prevent gluconeogenesis (conversion to glucose) from occurring but typically occurs when your exercising (why your ketones drop and blood glucose rises in the absence of type 2 resistant starch). When you are in a state of ketosis you are in a constant state of gluconeogensis when you eat protein.

The proceeding paragraph is for healthy metabolically fit people (non-diabetic):

But exceeding a certain threshold (e.g. 0.6 grams of protein to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day) will activate a higher volume of gluconeogensis so keeping protein intake under a certain threshold will keep the glucose volume lower, but if want to make it even lower just eat less protein.

So what Ryan Lowery is saying makes perfect sense, he has the science on his side.

The proceeding paragraph is for people with diabetes:

I know people will start posting Bikman videos after hearing that, problem is, people misunderstand Bikman and think they can eat all the protein they want (if they don’t have diabetes?), but their are other consequences they are not factoring into the equation when their is a difference between a person who has diabetes (and a person who does not) where gluconeogensis is impaired (demand driven?) to different degrees and varies in degree from person to person on how much protein they can consume in relation to blood sugars than a more healthier metabolically fit person (more insulin sensitive) who may be in a process of healing (varying degrees of insulin resistance) their diabetes.

Now why would you want to eat more protein if your diabetic? Because glucagon is the gas pedal and insulin is the brake?