Low carb but not in ketosis... where is the energy coming from?

[Corals]

Hello,

I’ve gone out of ketosis as per my ketostix. Following my app, I’ve been eating up to 40 g of net carbs, never more than that. I feel better like this than with under 20g.

But I’m puzzled. Where’s the energy coming from? 40 x 4 kcal = 160 kcals.

A day like yesterday, when I jog 8 miles, do my normal work and hobbies activities, I think my body probably needs at least 1500 kcal. Where are the rest of those calories coming from? Yesterday, I ate a little under 120 g of protein. That’s another 480 Kcal. Net carbs was <40 g. It totals 640 Kcal from carbs+proteins.

I can’t have many reserves of the carb kind, since I didn’t do any carb loading and don’t eat more than 40g per day.

So, the rest came from fat in my diet, right? Therefore, I am getting energy mostly from fat: 1500 - 640 = 860 kcal.

What’s the difference from this ‘state’ and being in ketosis? What am I missing? Is it bad for health to be in this zone of about 40g net carbs per day?

If that’s important: I only eat food I’ve made myself from basic ingredients.

Thanks.

[Shortstuff]

Pee sticks are not your friend, just because they do not register ketones does not mean you’re not in ketosis. Some people are fine up to about 50g, others more if they’re very active.

If you’re feeling good and getting results, go with it.

[anon81060937]

If not from stored fat. Then senescent cells get broken down for fuel.

[Polly1]

As someone said recently, if you are eating 40g of carbs or less per day and still breathing you are in ketosis.

[amwassil]

Your metabolism burns body fat in the absence of sufficient energy from eating whether or not you’re in ketosis. Plenty of folks lose weight on non-keto diets - see Biggest Loser. The difference is that keto makes the process more efficient, much less painful and avoids the primary downside of slowing your overall metabolism to match the restricted energy intake.

The Biggest Losers, for example, reduced their basal metabolism on ave 500 calories per day, for more than 5 years after they stopped dieting! Such a huge reduction is the reason virtually all CICO diets fail. Once you start eating again, which is absolutely necessary to avoid starving to death, the weight comes back on. Most folks on CICO diets eventually regain all the weight/fat they lost and then more as they ‘rebound’.

Lower carb is better than high carb, low carb is better yet. But the big difference is keto is a metabolic normalization process that does not occur otherwise. Part of the process usually includes weight/fat normalizations as well. In other words weight/fat loss on keto is a by-product of fixing and restoring normal health and function to your overall metabolism. CICO diets force your metabolism to burn body fat, but don’t address any of the issues that caused excess stored fat in the first place. So when you stop the diet, the metabolic problems are still there and weight comes back on again.

[amwassil]

Keep in mind that Phinney and Volek came up with their initial “approx 50 grams” per day while working mostly with athletes. While that may suffice for athletes, it probably won’t for the rest of us. So you could very well eat sub-50 grams per day and not be in ketosis, or in/out which is probably even worse. As I pointed out in my previous, you don’t have to be in ketosis to burn body fat. It’s just way more efficient and brings a host of other benefits you don’t otherwise get. That’s why this forum recommends sub-20 grams per day and the fewer the better. The less glucose/insulin you have sloshing around your innards, the more reliably in ketosis you will remain, especially insulin.

[SomeGuy]

@Corals Consistent with what’s been said, pee sticks are fine for a short, cheap, easy sense for what’s happening when you first cut out the carbs. But remember: they only measure the ketones that are NOT being used by your body … hence they’re showing up in your urine. They’re “wasted.”

As your body begins to utilize the ketones for energy, your body has less excess ketones for you to “piss away.” What’s more, your body’s systems adjust so you’re right-sizing your production/utilization of ketones … again, less is pee’d away.

Seeing your pee stick ketone levels decline is EXACTLY what you’d hope for.

Sounds like you’re off to a great start

[amwassil]

@Corals How much fat are you eating per day? The general objective is to replace energy you used to get from carbs with energy you get from fats instead. In my opinion, the more consistently you stay in ketosis the better for your health. The fewer carbs you consume the more consistently you will remain in ketosis and derive the benefits that otherwise you will not. So the question is why are you playing around on the fringe of ketosis? Being solidly and consistently in ketosis is one of the best things you can do for your overall health. Eating carbs not so much.

@SomeGuy Joey I don’t know whether you’ve seen this topic, interesting responses.

Fat Adapted and Still Excreting Ketones in Urine: Survey

So we’ve all heard the reports that the lowly urine keto stix aka ‘pee sticks’ are only useful for the first few months for newbies. Once you’re beginning to fat adapt the wasted ketones, specifically acetoacetate, slowly and steadily decreases in the urine until the test strips show nothing. End of story. Maybe not. I recently became aware of anecdotal reports by fat adapted or presumably fat adapted individuals also showing colour on the strips months after they should be showing nothing. Wha…

[Shinita]

If you ate enough, your energy comes from your food. Maybe temporarily you get fat from your reserves but if you eat more than you need later, it gets stored again.

As you could draw, ketosis is somewhat special. But you can get most of your energy from dietary fat off keto too. I always did that, I presume and it’s very obvious I did it in the biggest part of my last decade when I ate a bit below 80g net carbs a day. I felt wonderful and I lost fat easily for many months. Keto didn’t help with fat-loss after this point but in the long run, it will, just not the original keto I did (40g net carbs as it was almost impossibly low for me. I got lucky, it was one of my best choices in life even though keto feels very nearly the same as low-carb. but fat adaptation changed my life and my woe kept changing) but a lower-carb one. It’s very individual what woe can give us easy fat-loss without hunger but ketosis has extra benefits.
I am a low-carber. My important limit was 80g net carbs for a long time. I felt bad above, good below. My other, newer limit is somewhere around 20g? It’s hard to say as it’s not only about the carb intake. When I cross my ketosis carb limit, I don’t even notice, very little changes then. So it’s not a really important limit for me (but it had to be when fat adaptation was my goal and couldn’t go much lower), I should stay significantly lower most of the time. Not like I notice that but eventually, things do change for the better. And my old 80g low-carb woe feels off now. I mostly grown out of it, I think. People may change a lot.
And people are different too. Carbs are great energy for some people and they may be thriving on their high-carb woe if they do it well. It matters what carbs we eat, what else we eat, on keto and off keto alike. And I experience the same on carnivore. Egg and liver carbs are pretty different from sugar from dairy and I am not intolerant, just sensitive to my body’s signs and it is not into quick sugar, to put it lightly. I can handle a lot under the right circumstances but I often feel it’s not ideal, even using little amounts. And I want to be as healthy as possible without sacrificing anything important.
I always say to people that it’s best to find what works for their own, individual bodies. We here do very different keto styles. Most other people’s experiences are not even similar to mine. And we are at a different point on our journey too. With different circumstances, attitudes and so on but I already went way too far.

[SomeGuy]

@SomeGuy Joey I don’t know whether you’ve seen this topic, interesting responses.

So we’ve all heard the reports that the lowly urine keto stix aka ‘pee sticks’ are only useful for the first few months for newbies. Once you’re beginning to fat adapt the wasted ketones, specifically acetoacetate, slowly and steadily decreases in the urine until the test strips show nothing. End of story. Maybe not. I recently became aware of anecdotal reports by fat adapted or presumably fat adapted individuals also showing colour on the strips months after they should be showing nothing. Wha…

@amwassil Haven’t seen this, thanks! Having never personally used the urine test strips, I guess all I know is what I see on tv.

I still use the occasional blood serum BHB/glucose serum test (Mojo unit) since I have plenty of strips left and they don’t last forever. But to be honest I rarely learn much from them anymore.

It was a highly valuable source of n=1 data for almost a year, but having experimented with various foods, exercise, etc., I think I’ve gotten a good enough grip on how my metabolism responds. At this point, no point pee’ing on my parade.

[PaulL]

Keep in mind that Phinney and Volek came up with their initial “approx 50 grams” per day while working mostly with athletes.

Though Dr. Phinney says not, I swear I watched videos in which he was talking about people eating around 100 g/day of carbohydrate and being in ketosis. I assume these were metabolically healthy athletes he was working with. These days, he tells patients of Virta Health to stay below 50 g/day of total carbohydrate, in hopes (as he mentioned at Ketofest 2019) that they will end up below 20 g net.

I believe that the Dudes’ recommendation of staying below 20 g/day has merit. I feel better, the less carbohydrate I eat. There is a level above which I start to get my aches and pains back, even if it’s still low enough for me to remain in ketosis.

[SomeGuy]

I believe that the Dudes’ recommendation of staying below 20 g/day has merit. I feel better, the less carbohydrate I eat. There is a level above which I start to get my aches and pains back, even if it’s still low enough for me to remain in ketosis.

@PaulL Interesting to hear about the aches.

About a month or so ago, I was preparing a fruit platter for friends we were visiting for brunch. I hadn’t eaten fruit in about a year. There were no cravings or anything like that, but while I was preparing the platter I got curious and ate quite a bunch of freshly carved pineapple, watermelon, apples, pears … actually quite delicious.

A day or two later, one of my ankles started to “act up” as it often did before I’d gone keto. It hadn’t bothered me in over a year. But then it became just a bit stiff again, nearly sore, especially noticeable as I did my morning tai chi.

This stiffness lasted about a week and then it slowly receded again. Nothing terrible, but a bit odd. I wondered whether it was just a coincidence.

This fruit excursion was a one time experiment of sorts - and I ate a fair amount - both because it was great tasting and I was trying to see what if anything might happen. Tested my BHB & glucose the next morning and noted I was still clearly in ketosis (BHB around 1.0) and what, for me, was typical dawn-effect morning glucose levels (90’ish).

It’s been a month or two since then. Now I’m tempted to eat a bunch of fruit again to see if I can re-trigger the ankle stiffness … you know, for the sake of science. Then again, I’m not sure I really want to have ankle stiffness

And so, your comment about staying in ketosis but getting some stiffness if you go over some carb level piqued my interest.

[anon81060937]

@SomeGuy
Temporary reverse ketoacidosis?

[SomeGuy]

Temporary reverse ketoacidosis?

… even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious…

[Corals]

I don’t count fat. I eat it to satiety and not a gram after that.

[Corals]

Indeed.

I’ve got myself a cheap alcohol breath test and it always beeps me as not fit for driving, even though I don’t drink alcohol. I must be in ketosis.

[lfod14]

I’ve gone out of ketosis as per my ketostix. Following my app, I’ve been eating up to 40 g of net carbs, never more than that. I feel better like this than with under 20g.

Throw the pee sticks in the trash, they’re useless. 40g of carbs is no where CLOSE to being able to fuel you, you’re very much in ketosis. Jogging 8mi you could probably eat 100g and still be in ketosis for the majority of the day.

[KetoType2]

Where’s the energy coming from?

Fat.