Lets share our cholesterol numbers

(Alec) #21

Joey
Can you see the pic? It has the 3 dates on it?
Cheers
A

(Joey) #22

Ah, my badā€¦ Not reading as carefully as I should! Phenomenal :+1:

#23

I donā€™t fast either, but follow my appetite. My breakfast tends to be coffe with cream. And I tend to eat 2 meals a day. Some days 3. Extended fasts I wouldnā€™t be able to do at all. But I do wonder about HMLR and muscle theory, could it not also be the activity level that impacts LDL? Why would having more muscle result in lower LDL? I suppose more efficient fat burning?

I guess Iā€™ll see if I am an LMHR when I have my lipids tested 6 months to a year from now. I was lean when I started keto and didnā€™t have much body fat or weight to lose, am leaner now with less body fat, so I could well be an LMHR. I just wouldnā€™t know at this point. But I am reading studies that show when LDL is too low, all cause mortality goes up. Quality of life goes down, and that people with high LDL live as long or longer than those with low LDL. I am currently reading up on cholesterol though to learn more about it. I understand itā€™s the size of the particles we need to be more concerned with? And that a ketogenic WOE could potentially help with that, in that it increases the particlesā€™ sizes so they no longer are considered dangerous.

(Alec) #24

Low carb may increase the prevalence of large fluffy LDL particles, but I donā€™t think there is any conversion of individual particles on a low carb diet. The vLDL particles are the small dense ones, and they are actually damaged/glycated LDL particlesā€¦ they are particles that have been circulating long enough in a high glucose environment to get damaged, and then the recycling receptors of the liver donā€™t work with the damaged vLDL particle.

So, how to keep your LDL particles large and fluffy? Eat low carb/keto/carnivore, then the damage is limited to manageable levels and your body can deal with the small amount of damaged particles.

#25

So if my LDL was low 1.37 mmol/L when it was last checked (October 2022, still on a HC/LF diet) would that say anything about the chance of having those low dense particles? Or would I have needed a specific test for that?

(Alec) #26

You need a specific test: an NMR panel. The level of LDL does not indicate what type of particles you have (as far as I know!)

#27

Ah, thanks Alec. Iā€™ll be requesting that at the same time as I have my lipids tested again 6 months to a year from now. Wish I had asked for an NMR panel back in 2022, but of course I didnā€™t even know what it was, and I guess itā€™s not the standard thing in the NHS. My mom discovered her LDL cholesterol is 5.0 mmol/L, and is majorly concerned about it. She is on a typical HC/LF WOE. Sheā€™s also really concerned about a calcified artery in her heart. Iā€™ll tell her to request an NMR panel test or what the equivalent in Norway would be. If the information from that is good, nice big fluffy particles, if any, then she should have less reason for concern.

Would you mind sharing your NMR panel results when you have them Alec? I hope they turn out to be those large and fluffy ones, if at all present.

(Alec) #28

Sure willā€¦ but it wonā€™t be for a while yet as I am going to wait until I have had a slow few days on training to see if that improves my CRP (inflammation) score, and I want to do these tests together. I am expecting a good set of nice fluffy non-dense particles. But you can never be sure!

#29

No there are no guarantees in life. But fingers crossed AlecšŸ¤žAny idea what could have caused the inflammation?

(Michael) #30

My latest are probably not the best as I was over consuming calories, but just to be compete with @Alecmcq lec for the most ā€œAt High Riskā€ (we are close it seems) - here were my latest

Trig - 1.1 mmol/L (97.5 mg/dL)
HDL - 1.7 mmol/L (65.75 mg/dL)
LDL - 11.31 mmol/L (437.4 mg/dL)
Total - 13.51 (522 mg/dL)
total/hdl = 7.9

LDL-p - 2700
sd-LDL - 500

The month previous they were better overall with lower total and higher hdl, but those seem in the right ballpark for me regardless. I do not take anything as of today for ldl.

(Robin) #31

Those are awesome!

#32

Hi Michael, were those numbers taken post keto/carni? And do you know what your numbers were pre keto/carni? It does seem from these numbers you could be an LMHR, if your cholesterol numbers werenā€™t always high. Dave Feldman is an LMHR himself, but he has been able to manipulate his lipids, and has a video where he talks about this on his blog, the cholesterol code. As I understand it though it is the particles that we need to concern ourselves with more, and their sizes. Theyā€™re called the VLDL? Correct me if Iā€™m wrong. And also the CAC.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #33

My guess is that behaviour (such as eating proper food) that lowers triglycerides and raises HDL also deals with all the other metabolic problems. Thatā€™s going after the root cause, which is very different from taking a medication targeted and affecting a marker.

(Joey) #34

If sheā€™s eating high carb / low fat thereā€™s a reasonable chance her lipid particle size (seen through an NMR panel) is not going to be terribly encouraging.

The primary problem with getting folks to reconsider all that nutrition guidance weā€™ve been given (USA Govā€™t guilty as charged) is that weā€™ve simple-mindedly been told to equate eating fat with being fat - and having our arteries ā€œcloggedā€ with fat. Itā€™s simply not true - and things work quite the contrary if youā€™re NOT eating carbs.

But the ā€œwhole grainā€ carbs (and fruits and starchy veggies) are what weā€™ve been told are health foods.

An NMR test is not likely to be offering much comfort if your Momā€™s eating is as youā€™ve described. In fact, it might scare her into delving even deeper into low fat (and resulting higher carb). Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

(Itā€™s like how hard it was trying to convince surgeons to wash their hands after autopsies to avoid creating sepsis in their living patients. Or convincing gastroenterologists that stomach ulcers are caused by a bacteria, not spicy foods, etc. etc.)

#35

Hi Joey, I donā€™t know enough about it but yes, I do think if the news were bad, sheā€™d delve even deeper into low fat, and possibly eat more sugar foods, and at the moment she needs hope, not more concerns. She listened to me when I told her about IF, and says IF has fixed a problem she had been offered surgery to repair, and that surely is a sign of her body healing? She has noticed other benefits as well. So if she gradually cuts down on carbohydrates and sugar (she is currently considering a more Mediterranean WOE), she will hopefully be alright.

#36

After 6 months keto, my numbers went:
TC: 244 to 379 (9.8)
Tri: 102 to 72 (0.81)
HDL: 63 to 74 (1.91)
LDL 161 to 287 (7.42)
Will be getting bloodwork again in a few weeks and will be curious what has changed. It is 1.5 years laterā€¦

(Alec) #37

Weā€™re back to the good old correlation vs causationā€¦ we can manipulate markers all we like, but it is rarely the marker that is the causeā€¦ it seems the drug industry has been onto a very good thing that the medical establishment seems unclear on this quite important point.

I am obviously in the wrong industry: I make unhealthy cheese, whereas I should be in that lovely caring drug industry that cares for us all so much.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #38

Absolutely. Shoe size is a marker for reading comprehension, but buying your kid bigger shoes wonā€™t help her read better.

(Michael) #39

Those are 18 months into carnivore. VLDL is the particle exported by the liver. It converts to IDL and then LDL as it empties the cargo in a short timeframe. The accepted theory is all of those particles and their remnants are atherogenic. I do not currently agree but I am still researching the data and publications to verify the interpretation of the publications.

You may want to check out a David diamond interview with Dr Sher on diet doctor for some reasons to distrust the current paradigm.

Also, I am clearly a LMHR that does not reach the trig cutoff due to IR as a diabetic. Something I am working on as I type.

#40

Hi Wendy, by those numbers Iā€™d say you could be an LMHR too, and youā€™re not alone in this thread, there are quite a few LMHRs. So it does seem, as a natural response, the LDL goes up when going on a ketogenic WOE, and perhaps especially on a carnivore WOE due to removing almost all the carbs (there are still some in cream, eggs, cheese, meat, fish and seafood), due to both increased fat burning and the dependence upon fat as the main energy fuel. Dave Feldman showed, however, in a presentation he was able to manipulate his lipids by tweaking things in his WOE, indicating high or low levels of LDL (excluding HF), are not set in stone. But the real question is whether the LDL is really anything to worry about, I am currently reading up on that. And trying to learn more about ApoB, and VLDLs.