Keto vs. Carnivore and optimal weight (fat) loss

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#21

This is why I just call myself Ketovore, because the nitpicking as to what is and isn’t “pure” Carnivore is ridiculous. Dairy comes from an animal, by all accounts it should be considered Carnivore. And anyone who’s just eating ribeyes and water can’t hardly criticize “Dirty Carnivores” for not eating according to how “true” Carnivores do, because that’s certainly never been part of how we’ve prioritized eating animals until recently.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

Y’all got my curiosity up, so I went to @amber’s Web site, and found this:

I consider eggs carnivorous, but I’m ambivalent about dairy products. In particular, while milk has a favourable protein and fat profile, it also has a lot of carbohydrate. I’m sensitive to carbohydrates, and so aside from butter, and small amounts of cream and cheese, I avoid it. In any case, carnivorous is not meant to be defining or prescriptive, but descriptive.

I emphasized the final sentence, because I find it illuminating.

(Chris) #23

The new pop term is “KetoAF” where the “AF” means “Animal Foods”, thanks to @amber. It’s meant to mean a high, high fat carnivore version that includes anything you tolerate that came from an animal, probably only excluding sugary things like milk and honey (but cheese and cream would be allowed if tolerated by the individual).

It also serves as a nice play on words as many would just take it to mean as fuck.

(Catherine) #24

I agree it depends on you ask. Google it…you will get different answers in different places…

How strict carnivore do you want to be?

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(bulkbiker) #25

Thats what I thought it meant!

(Scott) #26

While on the keto vs carnivore subject. Once keto and fat adapted is there any transition or adjustment period going to carnivore? Does anyone just wake up and go carnivore for a couple of days or weeks and go back to keto? I ask because my wife who is a ketoer has no interest in carnivore but when she is out of town I eat fewer veggies and more meat.

(Chris) #27

Adapting away from “digesting” plants can take no time at all or quite a while. Up to a couple of years I’ve seen from first-hand accounts of others. Personally for me it was like flipping a switch.

You’re changing what your gut bacteria feed on, at basic level.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #28

And that is true of any dietary change, even fasting. Prof. Bikman half-jokingly remarked in an interview that fasting was a good way to kill off your gut biome and start fresh.

Of course, some of the gut biota resist change more than others. I well remember the difficult struggles several people were having with Candida at the time I joined these forums. They seemed to be getting all kinds of unpleasant symptoms from the die-off.

(Ethan) #29

I stalled for 15 months on keto after a good amount of weight loss–switched to carnivore and immediately lost 15 pounds in a couple weeks, and now its still going down.

#30

Are you still doing carnivore or was it temporary and now you’re back to regular Keto?

(Ethan) #31

I started it a month ago—also free of cheese and cream. I’ll do this for 2 more months and then reevaluate. I’m likely to continue it, but may add in the very occasional cheese topping or side or heavy cream in my coffee. If weight loss is still happening, I’ll likely not change anything. I may have a “cheat” weekend for ketofest to see how it affects me. When weight loss has stopped completely, I’ll add back in some plant fats (olive and avocado oil). I may add avocado back also occasionally. If I start gaining fat, I’ll keep carnivore.

(George) #32

What do your meals typically consist it?

(Ethan) #33

I’ve gone back now to eating every day. For the previous 3 weeks, I ate every other day. Meals are smaller sized now as a result. Breakfast is often 2-4 eggs and butter, tallow, or ghee. I have put caviar on it, too, sometimes. I may instead have smoked salmon or trout for breakfast. I do have MCT oil and coffee also. Lunch is usually ground beef or steak made in my hot logic at work–roughly 1/2 to 1 lb. Dinner is either stake or fish with butter or ghee, usually about 1/2 to 1 lb of meat/fish.

(George) #34

Sounds good!

How much weight did you lose before you hit that long stall?

I haven’t stalled yet, started at 297 in January and today I’m 244.4 but then again I switch up my routine slightly every couple of weeks, plus I do OMAD, and some extended fasts a few times per month. I’m definitely interested in carnivore for the simplicity it seems to have. I’m sure I’d save alot of time in the kitchen.

(Ethan) #35

My story is complex and needs some back info.

I always struggled with weight since I was 12. I am 5’ 11". At the start of my senior year of high school, I weighed about 200 lbs. I went on a low-fat, low-calorie diet. At graduation, I weighed 138 lbs. I got into working out a lot over the next couple years and became a very fit 175 lbs. I’d settle into cyclical routines (usually around relationships) and stop working out. Each time, I’d go up to about 200 lbs and then get back to 150-165 in the other end of the cycle. I had a LOT of hypoglycemic issues though and didn’t know this was because of insulin resistance. I could have been a lot better off.

In September of 2005, I weighed 155 at the low end of the cycle. By April of 2007, I was 255 lbs! My doctor should have really stepped in with major alarms. Gaining 100 pounds in 18 months is ABSURD. I stayed there for a while. I got married in 2008 at about that same weight. However, I started gaining fat slowly. When I had my son in 2011, I was at my peak of 278 lbs, which I held through all of 2012. I started to get thickened skin on my fingers and nail fungal infections. The thickened skin would eventually crack and not be able to heal. I would put neosporin on it and band aids to help, but the cracks would reopen constantly. I found a routine that worked, but it was horrid: I would burn the thickened skin off with salicylic acid until the entire sore was burned off. It was extremely painful. Then it would heal with neosporin. I would shave the skin with a file to prevent the rethickening, but i would eventually lose the battle and need to burn off the sore again with acid. This repeated every 3-4 weeks.

In early 2013, I started a largely plant-based diet. It was low fat and tried to be low calories, but I had a LOT of trouble keeping the diet. I ate 5-10 fruits a day along with tons of whole grains. I continued the finger regime with burning the sores with acid. However, I started getting fungal infections all over my body. I can recall crying in pain in the bathroom. The fungal infections would eventually bleed as well. It affected my ability to do pretty much anything. Nevertheless, I did drop to 235 pounds. I didn’t really enjoy my life at that point. I got sick at the end of August of 2013 with a stomach infection. The doctor found my glucose was 250 and I had an A1C of 10.4.

The diagnosis of type-2 diabetes was saddening to me–at 33 years old. I learned about the Newcastle study and put myself on a low-carb version of it with 800 Calories a day for 10 weeks. It was ketogenic, but I didn’t know that. Over those 10 weeks, I lost about 40 pounds and got myself to 195 lbs. All my conditions reversed. My A1C had dropped to 5.6 by December of 2013. I continued low carb, but it wasn’t high fat. I had a lot of cheat days because I didn’t understand how ketosis works or what it even was. I just thought I could return to low-carb eating after having some chocolate dessert at a party–and I did. My A1C had risen to 5.8 by May of 2014, but my weight was only up to about 200 lbs and relatively steady.

That’s when things started to go poorly again. I took a stressful job with a lot of travel. With increased travel, I cheated the diet a lot. It became steady “low carb,” but not ketogenic. I probably had 50-60g of carbs a day. By January 2016, I was 255 lbs again. My A1C had gone back up to 6.5 by mid 2016. I lowered my carbs a bit to 40g a day, but also cheated that often. I didn’t lose much weight–maybe 5 lbs. Then I learned about the ketogenic diet and why it had worked for me before–when I thought it was just low carb. In July 2017, I started on keto–high fat this time! I implemented a lot of fasting (intermittent and extended–5- to 7-day fasts). The weight poured off me. By December 2017, I was 210 lbs. Suddenly, I hit a wall, and my weight would rise to 220 lbs (or even 225 lbs) until I fasted next, when it would drop to 215 lbs. I stayed in the 210-225 range for 15 months. I was discouraged enough to not even weigh myself January or February of 2019. I did a 7-day fast at the mid-end of March and then weighed in at about 215 after the fast and began carnivore. I am at 202 right now.

(Adriana Ro) #36

Do you track the amount of protein you eat? Do you think I should? (As a 17 yo female who doesnt work out).
I’m on a 21 days carnivore challenge, trying to be as strict as possible I only eat a few eggs and a bit of olive oil, so it’s basically a ‘dirty’ carnivore diet. No nuts, sweetners or dairy.

(George) #37

So no meat, just eggs on your challenge? Sounds like more of an egg “fast”, which is what I’m trying out this week.

(Chris) #38

Currently, no. But just from eyeballing I get about 175 to 250g. Most of my calories come from fat and I’m probably at 3500-4250 depending on the day. So figure 200g protein and maybe 400g fat, or something like that.

(Chris) #39

No, she means instead of strictly meat, she adds those things she listed.

(George) #40

Ah, understood. And wow, 3500 to 4250? I wish I could consume that much without gaining lol