Keto Secret to Weight Loss: Satiety and Macros at Odds?

(Jamie) #1

I’m doubting my understanding of keto with regards to the correct amount of fat to consume for weight loss.

I’ve done low carb since 2011 and keto at times throughout this journey. I’ve lost 115 pounds, but have gone through long stalls and swings up from time to time when I’m not keto or just not doing well due to something stressful going on in life. I’m currently at 350, which is up by 50 pounds from my lowest point. Even if I were still at the 115 pounds down mark, I’d still have more to lose as a 6’2" male.

Determined never to give up, I’ve gone back to reading Volek and Phinney’s The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living. I’m trying to catch pearls that I may have missed in past readings. I’ve also been listening to older episodes of the 2 dudes. I think I’ve confused Volek and Phinney’s advise with others. Satiety and macros seem to be at odds.

I’ve been watching macros, keeping total carbs below 20g per day and protein moderate between 80 and 125g, which I calculated based on my lean body mass estimates and desire to build muscle. I’ve also been trying to hit 80 percent calories from fat. I’m now second guessing the fat amount.

If we hold carbs and protein to set amounts and still target 80 percent fat, we’re probably consuming too much fat for weight loss, right? If I understand satiety, we want to consume enough to feel satisfied, but not so much that we limit our body’s use of indigenous fat for energy. Correct?

Locking carbs and protein, then under eating fat just feels like calorie counting. Of course, that’s not taking into account indigenous fat. But if I think back to my early days of low carb, when I was seeing rapid weight loss success, I was keeping carbs fixed and moderating protein. I really wasn’t too concerned with how much fat I ate. I just knew I could enjoy it. I certainly didn’t try to hit 80 percent of total calories from fat.

In light of this “doh” moment, the keto secret to weight loss is to:

  1. Lock carbs in at 20g or less of total carbs per day
  2. Lock protein based on 0.8-1.5g per kg of lean body mass. For me, that’s 65-125g per day–which is the amount needed for my lean body mass and workout regime.
  3. Eat fat to satiety. Fat should be a relatively significant portion of my daily calorie use, but should be a mix of indigenous and exogenous fat. I find the fat intake amount necessary to sustain the weight loss pace that works for me.

As an FYI, I am in ketosis. I measure with a blood meter in the evenings and typically see ketone levels between 1 and 2.5 mmol/L, depending on whether I’ve worked out (typically weights with cardio mixed in) during the day. Just recently had fasting insulin tested and it was at 9.5 uIU/ml. A1C was 5.0. While glucose seems okay, insulin still seems a little high. I have no trouble with intermittent and extended fasts (up to five days), so I feel like I can tap into my fat stores pretty easily and definitely have plenty of fat to tap.

So, was I missing the mark on this?

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #2

I am of the opinion that you hit your targets (ketogenic level of carbs, necessary level of protein) and eat fat to fill out your meals to satiety. But I’m a Eades Atkins type of eater, not a Fung eater.

The reason I dislike macros percentages is just math. 20g of carbs is 5% of a 1600 kcal day. If I’m eating 2500 kcal it’s an even lower macro percentage. I’m not eating that way. Carb grams, protein minimum, fat to satisfaction.

(Chris W) #3

How long have you been in keto?

So I view macros this way now, maybe it will change, that they are the recommend to hold at or keep at a maintenance weight/BF in particular fat grams. My only stipulation to that is that you should hit your macros when you first start the diet to get the machinery working in the first few weeks.

I have been playing around with the protein levels and that seems to be more dynamic for people than the actual carb limit, I started off higher 1.0 and then dropped to .9 and now I am roughly speaking .7. I am not a “athlete” but I am still working out daily for 45 minutes to an hour and I have not noticed any change in power or muscle mass. I have recently started more fasting so I am eating above those macros on the days I eat but in the long run its probably lower if you average in the fasting days. I think the dudes covered this somewhere around #45 and needing to be as high a level or protein again its a recommendation not a strict rule.

As for carb limits mine seems to be north of 50g before I get knocked out. Without doubt the most important thing is to keep in ketosis, So in that right I view that the carbs as a tank that starts empty and you never want to fill it, not figure out how to top it off without going over.

Eating to satiety is your body telling you are full at that moment, macros are just numbers as of course every is a n=1 and they will very. At first I ate to and past my numbers to satiety, now I rarely make them once I hit fat adaption but when I do or pass them I don’t get concerned. I think a lot of people feel they need to make the numbers everyday no matter what, and nothing could be I had thanksgiving and Christmas in there, the first being a week trying to get back into keto, when I realized that turkey in excess will make glucose, lesson learned.

If you maintain keto long enough fat adaption happens and the world changes, the problem lies in that area between the two or at least it did for me.

(Alan Williamson) #4

The key is insulin. When you first started, you basal insulin level was high. Every time you eat, insulin is used. If you were like me, I was eating every 2 hours, 6 meals a day. I was hungry all the time. My insulin was high all day. Then I changed my diet to low insulin, keto. The weight just dropped off. The basal insulin level was low. Today for me to lose weight, I have to fast 3 times a week for 36 hours (a whole day, no food). Anything less is just maintenance mode. The key is being consistent. OMAD works too.

(Jamie) #5

Most recently, I’ve been in ketosis for about six weeks testing with a ketone meter. Numbers were low initially–0.5 to 1.0. I made some adjustments–dialing down the carbs more and narrowing my meal window–and they came up. Again, this is testing in evenings
when they tend to be higher. Interestingly, I’ve had some morning readings in the 1.5 to 2.5 range, but I don’t check those routinely due to cost of the strips ($2 ea).

Over the past six years, I cycle between low carb and keto, mostly from allowing more carbs during vacations, special family days (birthdays), and holidays.

(Chris W) #6

So do you typically eat fat to satiety or do you keep to the macro level of fat at this point. Your #3 seems to be leading you to stick with the macros, if they are adjusted for fat loss at this point if to extreme it may not be all that great as far as satiety and back fire for loss. It took a good 8 weeks of the diet with several ups, downs, and mistakes to get fat adapted for me. I suspect with your past dips in the keto pond you could probably get to fat adaption quicker then at that point I would cut the fat % down at a steady pace until what you feel comfortable.

I don’t have a BHB meter but I did use sticks and now a cheap breath meter, I am almost always steady state of around 1.4 acetone if I am doing the conversion correctly, which puts me at about a 5( my math is shaky and its a novelty at this point.) I have dark purple on the sticks when I wake up and it drops through the day so I am abnormal in that right a 6 months in. Are you a T2D ? I know they have a harder time to get the keytones up.

(Karl) #7

I can only speak to what I’ve found out for myself.

I can’t “eat fat to satiety” without gaining weight. If I eat to satisfaction, i’m gaining weight because i’m eating too much. Case closed, end of story.

But what I CAN do is eat a good amount of fat to a reasonable degree (either by eyeballing an amount of food or counting calories), waiting half an hour, then seeing if I’m still hungry. Usually the answer is “no”.

As for carbs, my amount is “as few grams as possible”. My goal is to eat no carbs. That said, things like HWC have some carbs, however little. I live with those. But I try to stay as close to 0 as I can.

Protein seems to work itself out as long as I am mindful to keep my fat consumption high.

And there’s nothing wrong with counting calories, particularly if you’re like me and have a broken/delayed “fullness” switch that makes eating to satiety a weight-gain situation.

#8

This is me too. I ate ‘lazy keto’ last year and gained 10 pounds. My blood sugars were slightly elevated but not bad, and I loved the foods. I was relatively careful with carbs, very few bad slips, but it was just too much food/fat to lose any weight.

Even now, carefully tracking carbs and writing every bite down, I still am not losing fast. But I am losing maybe 2 pounds per month. Not great, but in a year, that’s about 25 pounds, and I’d take that over nothing. I’m an older female, so that’s part of my frustrating puzzle too.

Over the years I’ve tried to figure out my hunger/satiety signals, and have found they are very weak. I too will serve myself an amount of food (the amount usually is pretty consistent), eat/enjoy it, then observe how I feel 30 to 60 minutes later. If I am still hungry (as opposed to ‘want to eat more’), I’ll eat more. If not, no. Usually I forget which means I’ve eaten enough.

(Jamie) #9

I favor the macros more than just to satiety. Like I said, I think I’ve been doing this wrong of late–not taking into account that some of my fat energy should come from indigenous fat.

(Jamie) #10

I don’t find that I’m hungry that much when in ketosis. I can pretty easily go 20 or so hours without eating. I may have a brief bit of hunger pang here or there, but it never lasts more than a few mins and it is never overpowering or distracting like I would have when eating carbs. Problem is, I can’t always eat when I get the hunger signal due to work or other life events. So I try to schedule in a meal in the 6-7 PM point. If I am eating two meals a day, I’ll add something in 5-6 hours earlier. I try to eat well during this time so as to really feast during this time. Lately I’ve just been doing one big meal a day.

(Chris W) #11

Alan I am not sure if this a question or more of a comment. I have found being consistent for long stretches tends to make my body fat go up. So for you in the long run you say that you need to now fast 36 hours to loose weight, are you eating really consistent then on a normal basis otherwise? I just listened to # 58 with Megan Ramos yesterday and it seems to confirm what I have been doing in being different and not keeping a real constant level of intake on the macros daily. Crank up the fat for a few days and then fast, have more protein some days than others. OMAD, 3 squares or snack all day same idea.