Keto/Salt and fluid around the heart

(Elaine) #1

Hello all,

Have done keto for many years in the past and felt great when I was doing it. I stopped just a few months ago.

Couple things have changed:

  1. Recently diagnosed with leaky tricuspid valve and a small amount of fluid around my heart. Doctor says to limit salt which I basically disagree with but this is kinda/sorta scary stuff. I got another copy of “The Salt Fix” by Dr. James DiNicolantonio. I saw one of his videos a few years ago and liked what I heard. Got the 2nd copy so I can do more investigation and see how this relates to my issues. Doc says the leaky tricuspid doesn’t need any treatment other than monitoring. But I want to be sure I’m not hurting myself with using Redmond Salt on my food as liberally as I’ve been doing. I sometimes get cramps in my legs at night. Tossing back a couple shakes of salt in my hand with some water often make the cramp go away.

  2. I’ve been ‘off’ keto for a few months. My BF doesn’t quite understand keto and prefers that I eat ‘normally’. I’m not really interested in educating or debating my eating choices and he basically understands, but that doesn’t make being surrounded by carbs any easier. I understand my food choices are in my control but gee, it’d be great if he did keto with me.

I’m preparing to get back into keto, just got back from the market, am psyching myself up for the task.

I’ve done keto for years mainly for the health reasons and losing 10 pounds of fat are a great side benefit. I’m just not quite sure how successful this new start might be. I’ve done keto through the week just fine, but the weekends are really hard and I can’t stick with it without feeling the pressure to eat the SAD.

The heart/fluid around my heart are concerns but obviously my cardiologist is going to tell me to limit salt. I don’t think I’m going to do this but I’m not quite sure.

I’m at a loss at how I can eat a ketogenic diet when there seems to be a lot of roadblocks to my success.

Is the answer to just do it?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #2

I’ve been eating keto since Jan 2017 and have been consistently in ketosis since. I was 71 years old at the time (76 on June 10) and I know now it was the best thing I ever did for myself. I know I upped my prospects for health and longevity by an order of magnitude. I work full-time at Walmart and I see many folks my own age and older. Most are in bad shape physically, mentally and/or neurologically. I feel very grateful that they are not my present nor my future. Keto is my insurance plan.

I ate SAD all those years prior, with a 2 year hiatus several years previously, when I tried keto for the first time. When I went keto I ‘gave up’ lots of fave carb-loaded food and beverage. But I discovered a new world of great food in abundant variety. I never missed anything I ‘gave up’ and still don’t. My wife eats SAD and constantly offers me ‘just little of… this or that’ which I politely refuse. Once in a while I’ll eat a strawberry or a couple of grapes. Otherwise, that stuff doesn’t interest me.

I guess what I’m getting at is that long-term success with keto requires an attitude adjustment. From concern about what you ‘gave up’ to what you gained. Once you convince yourself that what you gained far exceeds what you ‘gave up’ you won’t look back. There are no ‘roadblocks’. You are in a boat that floats.

Best wishes.

(Polly) #3

yes. Just do it!

(Bob M) #4

Insulin causes higher blood pressure, not salt.

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There are many of us (myself included) who need to eat “extra” salt on a keto diet, else we can get cramps.

(Elaine) #5

I agree. I’ve been concerned about health and how to make the next 15-20 years the best possible. Part of the reason why I went to the cardiologist in the first place was to check heart disease off the list (women have a higher rate of heart disease) and obviously I was stunned to hear my diagnosis. I’m more curious vs concerned about my future health; how could this happen? Which I suppose is a valid response when having been in good health, very low blood pressure, weight, etc for my life. When I’m doing keto on my own, I have no problem…the gym, the healthy attitude, and the high energy and alertness are evident.
I think humans have battles between what we prioritize vs what the media and social pressure prioritizes on our ‘behalf’. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m a bit more vain than I thought and I guess that’s ok too. Finding a healthy balance is tricky.

I’m gonna be checking in the forum for inspiring/informational nuggets.

Thanks for your thoughts and your time!

(Elaine) #6

Yep, I agree again.

In my case, my bp (including my 2 siblings) has hardly ever gone over 100/80. My average being 90/80. Over the last couple months, my bp has gone to 114/70, which health providers say is GREAT…but it’s not. It’s 30 points over my normal. Hard to get people to understand that normal isn’t normal.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

The systolic pressure (upper number) isn’t so much of a concern as the diastolic (lower number), because the systolic pressure is a momentary spike, whereas the diastolic pressure is constant. So a lower diastolic number is actually a good thing.

There are very few people who have salt-sensitive hypertension, but the recommendation to eat less salt has been made general, in hopes of catching those few. But according to a few recent studies, the healthiest range of salt intake is in the range of 10-15 grams a day (4-6 grams of sodium), regardless of whether we are salt-sensitive or not. The difference is that for most people the risk curve is J shaped, with a steep rise in health risk as salt intake drops below the minimum, but a rather slower rise in rise as salt intake exceeds the maximum of the healthy range. For salt-senstitive hypertensives, however, the sweet spot of healthy intake is the same, but the risk curve is U-shaped, rising equally steeply on both sides of the sweet spot.

As Bob mentions, the real cause of hypertension is elevated serum insulin, which causes systematic inflammation and interferes with the production of nitric oxide (NO), which the body uses to keep arteries relaxed and elastic. And serum insulin is elevated in response to the elevated serum glucose resulting from eating too much carbohydrate.

#8

I didn’t want to write so much about myself but I just couldn’t write without that, sorry.

Well we all have circumstances :slight_smile: My SO never will do low-carb as it’s awful for him while high-carb works perfectly. I don’t complain as he is very health-conscious, quite healthy and eats what I make but I cook and bake carby stuff as well (as little and simple as possible but it’s needed). There are temptations (rarely, I do very low-carb because I prefer the food and the effect on me), there are off days (a single one here and there I can even afford) but attitude and long term practice helps a lot. My taste even changed a bit during the last decade on low-carb.
It will be way easier to do carnivore if I lived alone but it’s still not bad, my eating is up to me, basically. When I have my fav food galore (fatty pork), it’s even easy. But yeah, I had practice. And not eating all those carby keto items (vegetables, mostly) helps surprisingly much.

I can’t help with the salt thing, I always needed little but after carnivore, it just goes down all the time. I barely salt my food at this point and it feels just perfect. My cramps always signal magnesium problems. But of course, many people on keto needs several times as much salt as me while there are carnivores using no added salt at all. Without problems I would say eat the amount you like but with the heart problem, you would need some expert who have some idea about keto, maybe…?

Anyway, good luck!!!

SAD. I dislike this thing as I never ate SAD, I am European and I didn’t eat like the average European either. We all have our individual diets, I guess… And our individual weaknesses, the same diet isn’t the same healthy for everyone. And we can change and learn. You can quit keto without jumping back into high-carb and your worst old habits… I had a pretty great low-carb woe before keto (the only woe ever where I lost a significant amount of fat this far) and I usually fell back to it on my off keto times until carnivore. Now my body wants to stay lower-carb.
(My mind wants bananas sometimes - only if I see them all day in my kitchen, I never want fruits out of the blue anymore. well banana is more like sweetener and flavoring to me - but I ate it all the time on keto in the first on/off years and it wasn’t so long ago so I guess I didn’t unlearn it yet :D)

Michael is right, attitude is very, very, very important. When I really put my mind to something, that’s powerful. I skipped added sugar, gluten and most carby items in one go and it was the easiest thing ever as I was determined, knew it is probably good for me - and kept so many good, enjoyable, satiating food. (It seems some people are addicted to sugar, they probably have a harder time. As long as I kept eating lots of sweets, I was fine even on a vegetarian low-carb woe. And sweets doesn’t need much carbs. It’s better and easier with my current style, though.)

I am a hedonist and food is very important for me. For some reason, I never focused on what I “lost”. I hate sacrifices and compromise so I always change my woe for the better from all angles if possible (I am healthy and it’s possible, yay). I don’t think I MUST eat everything I like or see or whatever. I merely need to have very very enjoyable and good meals all the time (well, almost, sometimes I just want to get satiated and joy isn’t on my mind so much). And I do. I eat great food and never eat something I dislike. As a vegetarian ketoer, I never ate green leaves as I hate them with a passion :slight_smile: I ate banana as I liked them and I needed to balance out the horribly low amount of veggies somehow. There were hardships but not much, not bad, I like challenges anyway. When it got truly hard, I always quit right away… And came back, usually very soon. Better than giving up keto entirely or making myself suffer.

You even have high energy? It must be easy then. I would do SO MUCH for high energy. I have low energy on every woe I ever tried. Keto never gave me much. After fat adaptation close to nothing. But I am stubborn, my body liked the direction so I changed my keto style. If yours isn’t easy and enjoyable enough for you to stay on it most of the time, maybe you don’t do it right enough yet?

I don’t care about the media, it probably helps :smiley: I even go against most advice on keto forums and use what my individual body and mind want and allow…

#9

you said: Recently diagnosed with leaky tricuspid valve and a small amount of fluid around my heart. Doctor says to limit salt which I basically disagree with----------

this is a big deal. I read up on it and there is a bunch of factors I can’t even guess on with you about your diagnosis and it can be one of those ‘very scary need to deal with NOW’ type things, or it is a ‘many live a lifelong diagnosis with this and can control’ so I have no idea with other med issues etc. or if you had symptoms that took you to a heart Dr at first either…but I wish you nothing but the best and read up a ton on it so you know what you are dealing with, which I am sure you are researching also :slight_smile:

Like with the ‘little fluid’ around the heart did they put you on any meds like a Lasix pill or anything? See my 93 yr old mom just got diagnosed with congestive heart failure which is a tad of fluid around her heart and it effected her knee and it blew up with fluid…well the heart is a muscle and mom is literally just wasting away with age and muscles decline ya know…just like her arm, leg muscles etc but luckily she eats very high protein so that is good! But they said drop salt and she hasn’t at all and she is doing fine with BP and all, but her BP did go up a small amt because of this diagnosis…so thing is I know my mom’s issues but I don’t know your issues on meds etc…as in with Lasix, the little she takes dumps water so along with it go electrolytes so keeping her salt a bit is a good thing we think for her…but again, we are all so diff in age and issues and more that it is that kind of thing where ‘you need to make that priority decision to fit you’ ya know.

I think if you think your salt is fine then you keep doing it.

BUT ONE THING I gotta say…get off those carbs and GO BACK ASAP to Keto and make sure you get very adequate protein!!! Make the overall health of your body better, use the protein to support muscle conditions, which the heart is and make your health that priority…and while your BF is wonky on it, you sit down and have ‘that chat’ that you are responsible for your health and you want Keto and this is how you are gonna roll…and the universe won’t stop turning cause you don’t eat crap anymore LOL and you won’t bother him…but YOU DO YOU…wishing you the best of the best!!!

The true answer is ALL about you and what you want and how to work around your med issues and all…very personalized truly…but it sounds like you know your path…grab that healthy path and hold on!!! You will never regret doing just that!

but that said…don’t dump your salt. Keep what little salt you need and enjoy your food.

(Elaine) #10

Thank you for the details and inspiration!

I’m not on any meds. I’ve been very healthy my entire life.

Only vitamins/suppliments when I remember to take them. Cardiologist offered no treatment, just monitoring. Something else, very unusual for me was my feet and my eyes swelled up, a lot just last month. A ‘lot’ for me because this has only happened 2 times in my life, the first being about 6 months ago. This latest swelling happened when we were in Central America, hot, high humidity, lots of walking. Cardiologist said people my ‘age’ can swell up in hot temps. I reminded her that my siblings and other family members didn’t swell up, only I did. She wasn’t concerned. She assured me this swelling wasn’t caused by my heart.

Yep, the fluid around my heart is minimal. Upon hearing this diagnosis, I freaked a bit because my mom died of congestive heart failure caused by radiation (altered the lining of her lungs; treatment for breast cancer). Cardiologist assured me I don’t have congestive heart failure.

What I don’t understand is why a leaky valve and fluid aren’t considered ‘important’ enough to dig in to finding a cause or treatment. This is the most frustrating thing about this whole thing. It’s not normal to have a leaky valve and fluid, a 30 point raise in bp…so why is it not important to investigate? Cardiologist was curious about what caused the fluid, but so far nothing has been discussed to ferret out the answer. I’m a fixer. I want to know what this is and how I can repair or otherwise address it in the best possible way.

I’m happy to get firmly back into keto. Yep, it’ll be hard to face bagels/lox, chips/salsa and my old friends Ben & Jerry. I believe in being kind to myself and allowing myself to live life as best I can and to not deny myself pleasures. Life is short but I also have to find a way to protect my health and be happy with both sides of this issue.

(Edith) #11

The Ketogenic diet tends to be diuretic. It prevents us from holding on to salt. It seems to me, staying keto should keep you from accumulating fluid. But, if you are not getting salt, I do think that can be problematic. If I don’t have enough salt, I get muscle cramps at night and my blood pressure drops a little too low. Maybe ingest enough salt to prevent cramps while you are low carb? (The heart is a muscle, too.) And then, if you go off carbs for the weekend, don’t eat salt because the carbs will cause you to retain water.

(Edith) #12

THIS!!! Well said!

(Elaine) #13

:slight_smile: The BF knows exactly where I stand on my food choices and why I make these choices…Like a lot of people he freaks when he discovers I haven’t eaten all day and it’s 7 at night. I’ve done OMAD for years. I usually eat when I’m hungry. My mom wasn’t a good cook, she was an artist. She had no time for cooking especially if the sun was shining. Because of that, I didn’t develop an emotional attachment to food when I was a kid. As an adult, that’s changed a bit. It’s not an emotional attachment but rather I want to experiment and have lots of flavors in my diet and try new foods. That can be kinda limiting with keto, at least to my current experience. If someone has suggestions, I’m happy to see them.

The main concern with the BF is it’s soooo tempting and I feel like I’m a bit of a drag socially when it comes to restaurants.

#14

well you have to remember and this is just from the web:
If the heart valve leak is severe, it may impair the forward flow of blood. This can cause symptoms of congestive heart failure, which include:

  • Shortness of breath, especially with exertion or when lying flat
  • Leg swelling or fluid retention elsewhere in the body

AND YOU were the only one to swell. And you never had it before.

My 93 yr old mom never swelled either til her knee went inflatable and she gained like 10 lbs and when we took her to ER for the knee, never thinking heart issue LOL we learned alot.

Key is if you got swelling that is abnormal like this, even very sporadic it is a sign the heart diagnosis you got is truly effecting you and I AM totally like you…I would research this til the cows come home LOL

and I would go to another cardiologist and go in saying just what I thought…I would say I swelled, I got diagnosed, I 'find that there is no concern YET…and I would chat it out with someone else from another point of view.

that way you kinda get that more secure feeling ya know on how to roll, a direction.

For me it was PVCs.
Holy cow I thought the big heart attack was coming for sure.
heart flips, flops, shortness of breath for a second while that happened and it happened all thru my day…I went to Dr and got heart monitor, which showed ‘an issue’, heart sonagram, and at night, omg it was like I was one step from death it got so crazy. THEN I hit a cardiologist who said I needed a heart catherization after I did a treadmill EKG and I finished it with no problems, all good but the results came back 'wonky;…ok scare me now LOL

Heart Cath surgeon said why are you here? Your arteries are perfect and I was like hell I don’t know LOL (and anyone needing a heart cath I was out of my mind doing this but in the end, it was so friggin’ easy truly, hmm, but…)

then I say IF I FAILED a treadmill EKG and my heart cath is perfect…what the heck? Dr said alot of times gals ring up wrong on the test due to their boobs? Yea for real? yea apparently it is!!

So got home and cardiologist wanted me on statins for PVCs which they then diagnosed…hell no. Found people with PVCs and I was 3000 extra beats per hr or something and other people were like 20K per hr and having horrifying times and I thought, OK I am not bad here, now fix this crap and again, research!

went home and researched PVCs and learned diet soda with that crap asparame in it and caffeine and stress and eating certain foods can trigger and I was a ‘diet pepsi fiend’ and I dropped that crap so fast…got into Atkins and I thrived…PVCs are almost non existent now but when I dropped that diet soda, omg my life changed instantly!

So what all that says is I walked ‘the crazy when scared’ ya know and had to do crazy tests and more even tho I was fine but in the end…I fixed me. I researched it all and found my path and I truly KNOW if you are this type, then do it…go that extra mile to find what works for you.

Your diagnosis means your heart works wrong sometimes and it is having to push that blood way harder thru issues thru your body which can be a sign your blood pressure is showing you…symptoms, can be small or big or sporadic but never to be discounted ya know…and it never means all bad, it can just be that sign we need to see.

Not ever trying to scare you at all :slight_smile: :slight_smile: truly.

but if you got questions you go find answers…I am that type and I did and those like my mother in law who take pills and just accept fates from diagnosis with no research or change, just fade…as she is doing now on tons of pills and with insulin shots and more…and she just turned 80…she is failing…my mom who is 93 just got her first diagnosis of any issue and is doing great.

So being proactive is very important and finding those personal steps to work for you all the time is key :slight_smile: at least I sure think that about me LOL

(Elaine) #15

@Fangs - HA!! You’re right! I’m like that!

A friend suggested I get a 2nd opinion and another friend asked me ‘what did you WANT to hear?’ Both are good questions. I guess it’s like hearing a noise in your car that doesn’t reappear when you take the car to the shop. I didn’t WANT to hear bad news, I just wanted to know what it was and how to stop it.

It’s possible that my low blood pressure, combined with extreme heat/humidity was a ‘normal’ response for my body. No one else swelled up because they haven’t ever done keto. One sibling is on a total plant based, no sugar, no processed food plan. The other sibling enjoys processed foods and soda. The bf didn’t swell up and his diet is total carb and he smokes! I think this might be a case of just not knowing. Will be a different story if it happens again.

My moms CHF was caused directly from the radiation (1970’s) altering her lung lining. Quite different from my situation.

There might be a connection between having carbs on the weekend, salt intake and bp. When I feel my bp too low, I up fluids and salt intake. It’s all a dance, a tricky choreography of doing this, doing that…monitoring and seeing what happens. I’m sure these events don’t really tell the entire story because the events don’t last long enough to properly measure the effects w/remedy.

I think a 2nd opinion would be good. I want to be firmly keto/fat adapted for a few months before doing that. Or maybe I shouldn’t? BTW I mentioned keto to my cardiologist and that I use salt…She didn’t elaborate on the evils of keto but I understood she didn’t know much about it.

#16

well now remember one thing, you were diagnosed with leaky tricuspid valve. THIS IS REAL, this is a physical thing, this is a real life physical body med issue but there are degrees ya know from what I read. Key being this is not ‘your being on keto in a humid climate’ and this is not triggered by chemo/radiation med issues from another might experience and this is not a ‘carby issue’ cause you went off plan.

This is a real deal. BUT from what I read the degrees of this ARE OK ya know in that you are not totally symptomatic of a life threating all in I need help issue but YOUR BODY is showing you something.

You took tests right? heart sonagram and more to determine this diagnosis of leaky heart valve and ‘the drs. saw this’ and it is real. Your tests show ‘a real life physical issue’ happening and that is good to know actually…caught early we can all easily adapt and change and learn and get thru things in a way better form then if we were never shown the signs!!! The signs direct us if we allow it!

but this is not the total scare at all ya know in that a real physical defect means we bob/weave/change and adapt. We find out it all that we need to find out :slight_smile:

and yes a second opinion is key and you go into that next cardiologist with your reports/scans/tests from the first and YOU SAY ALL you need to say :slight_smile: Go for it, grab this next expert for every question ya got on this and come out knowing way more than ya kinda know now…not a darn thing wrong with that.

but from what I ‘read of you’ being healthy your body is showing you something, take notice but not be frightened because from your health til now and this new issue I believe everything is working for you ya know…you got this issue and will be like me, that kind of person that beats a dead horse knowing my path to better health thru an issue LOL

darn if we can’t do that for ourselves? right? HA I know I like me too much to not put in some darn time into what is a better health issue for me, yea I do that and don’t give in til I KNOW…alot of people actually won’t ever go there…sending the best vibes on your way forward to you!! You have this in check and will do what you must, you sound like just that type of person :wink:

(Edith) #17

I went to a cardiologist a few years ago for heart palpitations.I told her I was following the keto diet and she thought that was just fine. Ya never know what the doctor thinks, especially now that keto is becoming more prevalent and knowledge is spreading. You may be pleasantly surprised.

(Elaine) #18

Looks like it’s gonna be a second opinion.

Thanks for your insight and support @Fang! I appreciate it!! :slight_smile:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

Neither did I. Food was and continues to be fuel for me, especially as an adult. I’m like a driver on the highway approaching a service station. I want to get in, refuel and get out again. The service station is not my destination.

#20

no problem ever on helping someone find that right way to go cause when I had my heart scare and got PVC diagnosis oh boy did I hit up everyone for any kind of advice!!

Just do what you know is right…and you know to learn more and not about how ‘this overall diagnosis’ is out and about for everyone, learn ALL about you on it :wink: you got this!!