Keto: regardless of where you stand

(Bill C) #1

You owe it to yourself to AT LEAST understand other perspectives, especially if you are struggling to stay in ketosis. Watch from start to finish before commenting. Don’t beat yourself up if you are trying to stick to ketosis and are not able to lose weight consistently.

(bulkbiker) #2

Hopefully no-one would …as most of us know that weight loss is rarely linear but instead goes up and down over time.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #3

What you seem to be having trouble grasping, based on many of the things I see you post, is that it isn’t a question of different perspectives at all. It is a question of different physiological responses. Repeatedly posting videos from people who clearly have no issues with high basal insulin levels or insulin resistance doesn’t alter the fact that many people struggle with those issues, and they will not be able to burn fat effectively without addressing those issues.

Telling someone in that situation to cut calories is counterproductive and potentially harmful.

And FWIW, I’m much more inclined to lean on the advice of doctors such as Jason Fung than on someone on YouTube with a body-building program. Fung has hundreds of patients treated to back up his assertions in terms of what works and what doesn’t.

Anyone who views keto as a “fad diet” has not done sufficient research.

(Bill C) #4

Posts that are made on this site are not directed toward any one group. Some people who are obese, clearly, may want to consult with their doctor before implementing a diet strategy. I think this goes without saying.

But, yes, most of the posts I am making pertain to the “normal” person, who is not obese. If you are obese and the information is not applicable to you then don’t view it. I am astounded at the number of obese people on this site who are upset because a post is made that cannot be universally applied. By definition, they fall outside of the norm.

Funny, I have previously said I have much more confidence in what an MD has to say than some guy on the internet. Now, when I post a bodybuilding guy who I think does his homework and does a good job explaining some key concepts, I get blasted by you saying you have more faith in doctors. As do I!

And, by the way, I have listened to Fung and believe he is, for the most part, on target. Where I think some of these guys go astray is when they promote a specific diet strategy as though it is the only way to properly control weight issues.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #5

You’ve been around longer than many, but I think you should avoid presenting yourself as an authority on what this site is about. As a member of the moderator team, and someone who’s been here since before the site went public, I think I have a pretty good perspective on what the site is about.

While KF is an open forum, and seeks to allow open dialog about all things keto-related, the typical user here is someone who either has T2DM or IR, or is on their way there, and is looking to keto to help reverse these serious and potentially life-threatening conditions.

If someone is looking for a place to learn how to “cut” for a body-building competition, that’s advice that’s not likely to be found here, as it’s not the primary mission of the forum (@richard , feel free to jump in here and correct me if you disagree).

Settle down. No one is “blasting” you. I am making a comment about what I find credible.

To be perfectly clear…the issue I see with what you post is that you do not provide caveats that your advice (or that of the videos you post) is only applicable to those with normal insulin response. You advise calorie restriction for weight loss, and consuming foods that for anyone with metabolic derangement would potentially be disastrous.

Not sure why you view yourself as being attacked, or why you are so keen to promote dietary advice that’s really geared more towards normals or bodybuilders, but understand that the latter two audiences aren’t the majority of KF members, so you should probably expect pushback when you argue for methods geared towards those folks who aren’t struggling with metabolic or hormonal issues.

(Bill C) #6

Oh, I wasn’t aware this site was geared toward those who are obese or who fall outside of the general population, those who have T2DM or IR. News to me. I thought this was a site where, in the context of the keto diet, ideas were to be shared that would hopefully help people who were looking to lose weight, even those who were having difficulty following a standard keto diet. Now, I see where the problem lies. I wasn’t aware this was only to be an echo chamber.

(bulkbiker) #7

Wow… you really are a real charmer aren’t you… why not try ketogains ? They are probably more your type of guys…but they take a lot less crap than we put up with here…

#8

Bill, taking this ^ as a genuine comment: the forum is for folks who are on (or interested in) a ketogenic diet. Keto can be amazing for so many people, but for folks who are insulin resistant, diabetic or obese, it can literally be a lifesaver.

I’m metabolically healthy and would be one of the people who would respond favorably to CICO if I were inclined to do it, but I don’t give advice from that perspective because 1) that advice is ubiquitous anyway and no one needs to hear it AGAIN from me, but mostly 2) because it could do more harm than good for someone who is already metabolically damaged.

I came to the forum already indignant about the poor medical advice for diabetics, but reading story after story on here has made it feel personal for me. I’m not diabetic and I don’t even have family or friends who are diabetic, but reading the stories of folks who were misled for decades by the conventional advice just breaks my heart, and I love that this site is a place that’s free from judgement and the condescending and casual “you just need to eat less and move more.”

Individual threads can go into particular issues that one person is having - so there’s certainly room for dealing with vanity pounds - and the variety is wonderful and interesting. But there’s something about the way you’re handling the interactions that’s really hard to watch, and it’s not because we don’t like debate (we LOVE debate :slight_smile: ), more because somehow the way you frame things doesn’t give room to those who have a different experience from yours.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #9

Then you’re not paying attention. A simple glance at the number of forums in, for example, the Health category vs. the Exercise category, along with the relative activity levels of each, or a perusal of the “Super-Dooper Real Life Photo Thread” and the many stories of folks in there, would be sufficient to reinforce the profile of the primary audience of this forum.

Were that the case, your posts would have been hidden once flagged, instead of being left to encourage discussion. The fact that you face disagreement over the advice you provide does not make this an echo chamber. But if you find the forums too restrictive, you are always free to post elsewhere.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #10

Also, to be clear…when posts are flagged by the community, it is often the case that mods will discuss internally before taking action, to limit the possibility of any individual stifling discussion or reacting out of personal bias or animus.

Often, mods will choose to leave topics or posts that are not in keeping with the typical advice provided here, for purposes of discussion and/or debate. Your post was one of these. So you’ll forgive me if I find it odd to be accused of “echo chamber” moderation from someone whose post I argued for keeping.

(TJ Borden) #11

I know you’ll ignore me, and that’s fine, although I still think we could be friends.

As I posted on another one of your threads, but I’ll repeat here. Obesity and insulin resistance are NOT mutually exclusive. One can, and often does, exist without the other.

(Bob M) #12

You also have to remember why it’s an “echo chamber” (assuming that it is): we’re all (or 99% of us) affected by blood sugar/insulin issues. We’re all repairing this. Most of us gained 50, 100, 150+ pounds. Many of us (ie, me) have possibly permanently damaged their systems. I, for one, have had tremendous benefits from being low carb/keto for about 5 years now. But I’m still 40+ pounds away from where I was in my 20s, and it’s not for lack of trying to get closer to that.

I’ve done or experimented with: resistant starch; probiotics; prebiotics; intermittent fasting; long term fasting; lower protein, higher fat; higher protein, lower fat; eating dairy; not eating dairy; different vitamins and minerals; different proteins; fish oil; exogenous ketones; MCT oils; apple cider vinegar; paleo; whole 30; etc. The list goes on and on and on… You name it, I’ve pretty much tried it.

And I’m here because I’m currently keto and using fasting of varying lengths, and I still have a messed up metabolism. That’s why I’m here.

If people here “echo” this, that’s because they’re probably in the same or a similar boat, not because they want me to parrot to them what they already know.

(TJ Borden) #13

:rofl::rofl::rofl: I’m in ‘Murcia. Obese and/or T2D/IR IS the general population

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #14

One wonders if “Vitruvian Man,” as a Physique Competitor, has experience that is even applicable to “normal” folks, whatever that is, much less insulin resistant overweight and obese folks, T2DM folks, epileptics, folks with thyroid dysfunction, autoimmune disorders, and whatever else brings folks to LCHF/Ketogenic dieting.

Open question. If he didn’t start as an overweight person, I’m not sure he holds the key to transformation.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #15

I think you mean are not 1:1 correlated.

(Ellie) #16

This is the key point for me.
If you put in your posts that the advice you have is from the perspective of someone who has a healthy weight or no known metabolic derangement then it would be fine. You are entitled to your view.
But responding to a newbie question from someone who is overweight or obese with that same advice is not helpful for that person who may not know better yet.
It is like a marathon runner advising a new runner to go out for a 12 mile training run because that is what they do. The new runner would most likely become knackered or injured well before the end.

(Mike Glasbrener) #17

Your authority has zero science to back his points up. While he makes hay criticizing other crap “authorities” he is of the same ilk. I for one will not click on any of his links. It is certainly not an echo chamber. If you’ve been here for nearly a year and think so I have no idea what threads you’ve been clicking on! Reading comprehension? Anyhow, read the threads. Do the research. One third of the US population is obese and another third is on their way. There’s been an absolute explosion of T2DM in the US. The development of T2DM in China is even worse, where it was nonexistent 30 years ago. I would guess no one on this site came here because they were trying to go from 10% body fat to single digits. Almost every nooby thread is “please help” I’m fat as fuck and trying to get control of my life. Almost everyone hopping on threads tries to help. The titles of your threads try to convey helpfulness. Please tell me how this guy’s threads help them?

(Bill C) #18

Recently there was a young woman who posted that she was frustrated that she wasn’t losing weight. She certainly was not obese and I don’t think could even be categorized as overweight. She just wasn’t happy that she wasn’t losing weight. I told her what I thought. Just like everyone else does on this site. I am not telling other people their advice is wrong.

I was not aware this was a site solely for the obese and my sense is, like for this young woman, neither did she or she wouldn’t have posted here. I would imagine there are a lot of people who see the name of this site and think they can have a rational, sincere discussion about how they view things. No, but instead almost every time if you do this, if it doesn’t meet the views of those who are obese who overwhelmingly post on this site it is viewed as verboten. Like any other well run site, each person has the ability to read or not read a post. If they don’t agree with it they can express their views, but to constantly denigrate the person who falls outside of the narrow viewpoint held by the majority is not free expression at all. It is conform or get out. That is not healthy.

(TJ Borden) #19

It’s not. But your “advice” is the same bullshit people have been saying for 40 years and DOESN’T work a growing majority of people (you see what I did there? Growing applies to both number of people AND sizes. Pretty clever, I think)

(Mike Glasbrener) #20

Post scientifically supported information and openly discuss it. I doubt anyone who’s been here a while will attack your character for citing it and openly discussing it. Your two videos have no scientific basis. It just a body builder standing on a soap box expressing a non scientifically based opinion.