Keto insomnia again


(Fabrizio) #1

I know this is a frequent issue for keto lovers, but I still haven’t found a solution. My insomnia is not total, if I fall asleep at 3 or 4 in the night I sleep until 8. Sometimes I cannot sleep at all.
Please someone help me, I’m doing keto to cure a disease (chronic fatigue syndrome) and it works GREAT for me. But, if I don’t resolve insomnia, I can’t live well anyway. I need a lot of rest to heal, because until some months ago I could barely get up from the coach. I’m sure 100% insomnia depends from keto or something I’m eating.

I’m in chetosis since 50 days now.
I reach ketosis through vegetal oils mainly, almonds, seeds, coconut oil, eggs, avocado, fish. I don’t eat lots of saturated fats, I take lots of greens, good amount of proteins (1g/1kg of body weight), enough calories (I am not losing weight).

I have tried many things suggested on internet, more water and salt, a carb reload (fruit in the night), some potassium and magnesium, they don’t work. I also tried lots of practices anti insomnia, like meditation, buteyko, earthing, nothing works! Please someone helps me, it’s so important for me to solve this.


(Edith) #2

How much salt are you getting?


(Bacon enough and time) #3

This is always a difficult issue, because we are told we need a certain amount of sleep a night, and that’s not always true. Many people find that, even though they sleep less on keto, they wake just as refreshed.

So it depends on how you feel when you waken after getting the amount of sleep you’re getting. If you are refreshed, then the fact that you’re getting less sleep is not a problem. But if you are wakening exhausted, then that’s definitely a problem.

You might need to look into not only how much sodium but also how much magnesium and potassium you are getting, as well.


(Fabrizio) #4

Well, I don’t know exactly, I’m eating enough salty, I like salty foods so I spread salt generously, but not so much to ruin the taste. I’m not taking extra salt during the day…


(Fabrizio) #5

Yes, many times I wake up more refereshed with few hours of sleep. But generally my sleep sucks. Ketosis is great but not enough for my brain, it needs more sleep too. So I’ll check much better my potassium and magnesium, definitely.


(Alex) #6

In my second week of keto, I once didn’t sleep for 72 hours straight, it was such a struggle. Once I fell asleep after that, my system seemed to reboot, but I still get insomnia once a week overnight.


(Bacon enough and time) #7

That is a shame. I’m sorry you’re having this trouble.

I just remembered that melatonin used to work really well for me. I only stopped taking it, because I began taking a medication that melatonin didn’t play well with.


(Alex) #8

Melatonin was a big part of my life for years. I took it every night and slept within an hour of taking it. But like you, I’m on a medication that I can’t take melatonin with.


(Bacon enough and time) #9

Sometimes it seems as though every supplement I want to take is contra-indicated because of some prescription I’m taking.


(Fabrizio) #10

Melatonin does nothing to me, and I am taking extra doses.
Returning to the electrolyte part, what should be a good amount of sodium, potassium, magnesium, and others? I see it’s very subjective but in a case like mine, almost 50 days of keto with insomnia, how much electrolytes would you take at my place?
Here it’s 4 in the morning in Italy now… no sleeping.


(Bacon enough and time) #11

The healthiest sodium intake has been shown to lie in the range of 4-6 grams daily.

There are published recommendations for magnesium and potassium, and plenty of supplements out there, though I’m in favour of getting as much as possible of what we need in our food, since it’s often more bioavailable that way. WebMD advises against taking more than 350 mg of magnesium daily. Their recommendation for amounts of potassium are here.

In any case, getting salt in the right range helps the body hang on to the other minerals and use them more efficiently.


(Fabrizio) #12

Thank you Paul :pray:t3:
So 4-6g of sodium should correspond to 10-15 g of salt daily? Correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m going to double (or more) also my magnesium intake in powder form, but I already take it from foods (pumpkin seeds, avocado, almonds…). Let’s see…


(Bacon enough and time) #13

That’s my understanding. Bear in mind that a lot of foods contain some salt naturally, so we don’t have to go bonkers putting salt on everything. I find that my body has ways of making it known whether I’ve gotten too much or too little.

There is a magnesium atom at the center of every molecule of chlorophyll, so leafy greens are a good source of it. And salads are a great vehicle for blue cheese dressing, lol!


#14

Chronic Fatigue. that is a toughie in that it could be guessing cause they don’t know…might be viral, might be a combo of autoimmune issues combined, could be psycho issues topped off on a list of health issues that ‘trigger’ this issue but it is real and it has to be handled but I also don’t think it will ever be one of those 'fast change, I am ‘fixed’ issues anyone deals with and it is over and done on 3-6-7 mos on an eating plan change. I find this to be a real test of length of time for true healing and hormones re-balancing and body repair and more so I think you are in for a longer haul cause your body is telling you just that.

I think also the more you focus on this the worse it will seem in that one time you slept so long but woke up refreshed so…that is good, but most times you are still feeling that sleep deprived fatigue but is it all due to sleep? again could be adaption issues that are monkey’ing with the sleep cause you are changing to a healthier you?

I don’t also know your life stress? that is a big play here but one a person must handle on their own and if life stress is involved, that is something you need to tackle when ya can and when we are more in control of our lives as we want and see fit in whatever hits us, we become more calm and more apt for better sleep, but again this is very personal to each of us and our overall well being.

I don’t believe your insomnia is take triple doses of mag or melatoin or anything else.

in fact, I would drop them all.

My personal advice. Back to massive easy least invasive basics for my body. My personal thought is go the other way. If we are trying increase this to monster levels, increase that other supp even more, add in another supp just in case…I for me would see a wrong path.

I would go opposite and check that out. OFF everything! Dump it all and rely on your food and see what goes down. I would think it would be worse for a tad, but then I feel like, as you give it some time you start to realize that maybe I never needed that much of that supp? Maybe I was over-polluting my body on XYZ? but only by elimination will ya know this. but by dropping all you will have another body adaption time to work thru but can be a good thing for you personally maybe??

and not sure if you are on any prescribed meds? throw those into the play and alot of what you are dealing with is even more out of whack but if on presciption meds, read those side effects again cause one might be darn sleep interruption issues??

My advice is back to freshman year basics. Back to what life was off all the crap and what we thought we knew ‘we needed’ and start there and then evaluate yourself all over again from that fresh new viewpoint.

sending you best wishes on a way forward that works best to you!!


(Fabrizio) #15

Thank you for your long and appropriate message Fangs.

In fact you hit many right points: I believe that CFS is caused (in my case) by a psycho issue in top of some other health issues. I know I am in the (long) road towards healing now, for many reasons, too long to explain… Anyway, I know I’m in control of my “psycho issue”, who used to cause me lots of stress, but it is not going to happen anymore, hopefully. Also, keto diet is completely trasnforming my system, I feel much more energic, even when I don’t sleep, I digest better, I have no more muscle pain, and so on and on.

Probably a new me is going to develop, I am very optimistic at the moment. I’m not on meds on any kind, I’m practicing yoga/meditation that help a lot, I’m beginning to have a social life again. The real test will be when I will have a working life again, in some months from now: to bear the psycological/mental/pshisical load, will I be able to do it? And for how long? Much easier to feel good when you are on holiday.

I’m thinking that the sleep part will play a huge role in this, so I prefer to try the road with lots of magnesium/salt/potassium for now. I already tried to take nothing. I simply believe my body is trying to become fat adapted, and it needs a lot of support now.

Thanks for your suggestions, I will take them in consideration seriously anyway.


(Marcia T) #16

The only thing that struck me was your use of vegetable oils (a/k/a seed oils) and - it seems - avoidance of saturated (animal) fats. Check out Tucker Goodrich and his take on seed oils - it might be contributing to your problems, since the ratio between omega 6 and omega 3 should be close to 1:1. With seed oils, it’s much more apt to be totally skewed and too much omega 6 cancels out any benefits of omega 3 fatty acids.


(Fabrizio) #17

Well I don’t avoid totally saturated/animal fats, but I keep them in some limits… not much for the cholesterol thing, but because of the lots of research that link them to a bad gut flora. I come from many years of TOTAL malfunctioning of my gut. Now it seems to be ok. Anyway I don’t know for sure, but I can keep ketosis using monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats, and so I do.

Little follow up: my insomnia problem is enormously reduced with more magnesium; since 3 days I’m sleeping 5 hours every night, still not enough for me, but a great step. Sleep quality seems to be improved too. My health status has significantly improved in a short time. Thanks to everyone who gave me an advice about this, this is an amazing forum and I wouldn’t be able to improve my health without it. Thank you.


(Bacon enough and time) #18

I haven’t seen any of that research, and I have to say that it would have to be a really convincing study to get me to believe that, because I don’t believe we truly understand, at this point, what the good and the bad gut flora actually are.

Do you have any studies you can link to? I suppose it’s time for me to buckle down and start making an effort to actually learn something about the whole intestinal biome thing. . . . :frowning_face:


(Fabrizio) #19

Here some links about the argument we were discussing

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5083795/#:~:text=A%20diet%20high%20in%20saturated,may%20affect%20intestinal%20flora%20composition.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.21122

https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej201463

https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01604-18?permanently=true

https://www.clinicalnutritionjournal.com/article/S0261-5614(18)32592-5/fulltext


(Robin) #20

@fab78 Yay! Good to hear your insomnia is responding to the magnesium. Works for many of uS.