Keto insomnia again

(Edith) #21

This is the only study I’ve looked at so far, but it makes me wonder…
Are mice supposed to eat lard? They eat seeds, plant matter, maybe some insects. I have a feeling saturated fat (lard in particular) is not a part of their natural diet. Couldn’t that be why it promoted obesity in the mice fed saturated fat? Would this study really pertain to humans?

This reminds me of the study done all those years ago where rabbits were fed cholesterol and low and behold, they developed high cholesterol. And then they thought that applied to humans, as well.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

This is always the problem with animal research. How well does it apply to human beings? I can tell you, as a rat owner, that the supposed “low-carb” diets in studies are horrifyingly bad for the rats, so the diet on which the study conclusions are based is by no means comparable to what people should be eating.

Not to mention the fact that human beings are the only animal that can get so easily into ketosis. I once asked Peter at the Hyperlipid blog about putting my rats on a ketogenic diet (he’s a veterinarian), and he said it’s practically impossible. They really only become ketotic during the late stages of starvation.

In any case, caution in applying animal models to human beings is definitely required.

#23

I know for me, if i can’t sleep, I’m usually stressed about something.

Unfortunately, this is a self perpetuating loop- the more you stress, the more stressed you may get.

I’ve found exercise, dog walking (listening to the dog snore contentedly!), positive interaction with people/friends/family cooking…and of course this forum at times. And getting things sorted at work; which can be difficult for everyone!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

It’s funny how that works. I was in the hospital for an extended period six years ago, and when I returned home, it was a week or so before I got my rats and chinchillas back. It was so hard getting to sleep until I could hear the cage noises again at night!

(Fabrizio) #25

Thank you! I’m very happy it is going this way!

(Fabrizio) #26

Yes science cannot establish something based upon animal researches, but they could be useful someways. They are also often contradictory. For example there is a research in which mice doing ketogenic diet live much longer than those doing high carb diet, and with sharper cognitive faculties.

In my links there are some studies based on humans, and the results are similar (I haven’t read them all anyway). Anyway there is no research based on healthy fat adapted people (that could respond differently).

#27

Magnesium, Melatonin, 5-HTP and PharmaGABA. Thats (most) of the Doc Parsleys sleep remedy, he’s a Navy Seal Doc that works with Seals with completely destroyed sleep cycles.

You could also try the real thing, a little pricey but gets amazing reviews. My issue isn’t going to sleep, hut staying that way, my father has pretty bad insomnia and made him a lot better, not fixed, but much better.

On the low saturated fats being low, you’re relying on fats for fuel, including the brain, if you’re under fueling that, everything goes haywire, both from an energy standpoint and hormonally. Not sure what you take in over the course of the day, but FWIW, Coconut Oil, Eggs, Avacodos are all saturated fats, which is good!

(Fabrizio) #28

Thank you for suggestions about sleep, I’ll do a research on these products. I’m doing fine now anyway, the magnesium seems to be enough. My general health is A LOT better after almost two months of ketosis, although I cannot still sustain big phisical/mental stress (some days ago I walked for many hours and I’m still paying it). Before beginning keto I was reduced like a plant and I could barely move (and simultaneously I suffered a lot and couldn’t sleep).

About the saturated fats, I’m following some principles of doc Dominique D’agostino who suggests to reduce saturated for the reasons mentioned above. Avocado has only 15% of saturated fats on total fats. Coconut oil is suggested by the same D’Agostino as it contains some sources of MCTs, wich are kind of saturated fats which acts differently by others. D’agostino says it is shown to protect gut microbiome and brain, and to enhance ketosis.

Anyway, I hope it’s clear that I’m not trying to convince anyone about anything, if you are good with your kind of diet, please go on this way. I am following a personal path (like everyone). I had tried keto some years ago, with great health benefits, but with so many gut problems that I was forced to stop it. Now I just hope to continue to improve.

#29

Hi,
Ive been a deep sleeper all my life. As soon as my head hit the pillow I was asleep. Absolutely no problems sleeping anywhere, anytime.
About a year after going low carb / keto I started having sleep issues - mostly sleeping for a few hours and not being able to get back to sleep for several hours.

For my insomnia 4 things seem to help:
Magnesium
Salt
Iodine
Folate / Folic acid
Seems if Im short of one of these Ill wake up after a few hours and have trouble getting back to sleep. Half an hour or so a taking whatever I think I might be lacking Im usually sound asleep again.
A quick, cheap, easy and safe solution may be to have a multivitamin with a bit of salt every day or so and see if it solves the problem.
Hope this helps.

#30

Sounds like you’re having issues staying asleep, but not going to sleep? Are you peeing every time you get up, or do you just wake up for no noticeable reason?

If simple stuff like that is noticeably helping, are you tracking your food intake so you know what you’re getting from a micronutrient standpoint? It could be as simple as you being really low on something (or a bunch of things) you’re not even thinking about.

If you’re not, use cronometer to track everything you eat for a week, see what you are and aren’t getting in, if you’re not even taking a multi currently, pretty much no doubt you have some deficiencies. Very few people pull of getting everything in they need with diet alone.

(Fabrizio) #31

Hi trukar, thanks for your message.

I’ll try your suggestions as I’m struggling again with sleep these days. I fall asleep always very late (at 5, 6, or like this morning at 8) but then I sleep profoundly for 3-5 hours. It’s a huge issue for me

(Fabrizio) #32

Hi ifod14,
no generally the problem is only falling asleep,
if I get up for the bathroom then I fall asleep again immediately.

Yes I track macronutrients and everything I eat, I write a diary too. I don’t think I have deficiencies. I believe it’s more likely some food intolerances. One night I took an antihistamine, only to make a try, and it made me sleep. Then I tried an exclusion of histamines from diet but it didn’t work. I’also taking much magnesium glicinate and triptofane, but nothing… I should say also that I don’t feel anxious when I don’t sleep, only watching movies or playing bass or piano and waiting.

#33

Give this a try then, Magnesium, 5-HTP, PharmaGABA, Melatonin and D3,That’s the bulk of what’s in Doc Parsleys Sleep Remedy, his new one added L-theanine, and Phosphatidylserene it’s considered the king, even vs pharma sleep aids.

He’s a former Navy Seal Doc that specifically dealt with the Seals inability to sleep correctly even on pharma to fix it. I go sleep very easily, but have trouble staying that way, the first couple do a lot for me.

(Fabrizio) #34

The problem is I don’t have more money to spend on supplements too. And my problem of fatigue is keeping me away from some jobs I could have in this period! If I only sleep I think I could begin to work again.

I’m curious about these products and I would like to try some when I can. But I prefer not taking anything that acts on gaba, as I have a history of dependence from benzodiazepines (that act on gaba) and I struggled a lot to withdraw. I used to take them for sleeping, then I was successful to get rid of them 3 and half years ago, after a long time of pain and sorrow to withdrawal from them. Now I’ve even the doubt that benzo could be the main issue, as I have taken recently some (no more than once a week) and who knows this could have awaken the tolerance. It’s a total havoc for me.

(Edith) #35

Are you eating enough? If you are under eating, your body can find that stressful and release cortisol. Having increased cortisol late in the day can make it difficult to fall asleep or stay asleep.

(Fabrizio) #36

Hi Virginia. Yes, I do. I gained 3kg in lasts 2 months, I was underweight, now almost normal weight. Eating lots of fats is a consolation :slightly_smiling_face:

#38

I realize this is an old thread but thought I would add my recipe for insomnia which I have had pretty much my whole life (as my parents can attest). This is not medical advice, simply what I do.

I do take melatonin, either chewable or spray as I find them quicker acting. Plus I find the spray helps me sleep even if I only have 5 or fewer hours to sleep and I can get up when I need to but it is different for everyone.

Then about 30 minutes later I will go to bed. If I cannot fall asleep immediately I get out my ipad with the kindle app, the screen is preset to warm light from 8 -8, and a black screen with white letters for night time reading. I will then start reading about my latest non fiction interest, whether diet, health, economics. Even though I pick topics I am interested in and yours could be something else (get the books from the library and load through the libby app) within a few minutes it is too much effort to keep reading and I go to sleep. The light is off and I just need to put the book down and roll over! It helps calm my mind from whatever would otherwise be bothering or concening

#39

I used to fly around in various time zones a lot, and often suffered badly from jetlag. So bad that I had to arrive a couple of days early in order to recuperate to be worth a penny at a conference.

The solution ended up being: Arrive before dark and walk outside in the light/sun for 30 mins to an hour. Eat, go to my room, take melatonin, watch Tv for half an hour or so before getting drowsy. I then slept through until it was morning at my current locale.

It only worked for me if I caught some daylight upon arrival. Otherwise, it would still fall asleep but wake up way to early and tire within a couple of hours.