Keto and Arthritis; Keto and amount of protein

(KCKO, KCFO) #41

Made me laugh out loud.

(KCKO, KCFO) #42

You might want to check this out:

(Kira) #43

Thank you, collaroygal. I will check out the links you mention.
I tell you, I have A LOT of experience with diets. In my long lifetime I have actually lost and gained 240kg!!! I should be getting a medal for all the dieting I did. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: Fasting (for a fortnight) was amongst it and very successful about 20 years ago when the weight fell off me easily and I was doing a lot of cycling as well. :stuck_out_tongue:
I do remember very well the phases when the weight would not come down for a week or so despite me sticking to the diet. How frustrating this was - and now that I am a lot older and find (or found) it harder to lose the weight, I don’t want this to happen again. Hence, my concern.
Of course, weight will drop eventually but in my case it was an equivalent of starving (or feeling I was starving).

Where Keto is concerned, I am stunned over and over again. Every effort is rewarded sooner or later - and without any physical effort, too. Well, apart from walking my darling dog. Lots of it. :smiley:

(Kira) #44

Thanks for the helpful information, Betsy. I do avoid and take some stuff concerning arthritis but not B5.
I have looked into B5 and noticed it is in a lot of food I used to avoid. Like liver (can I say yuk!), pork (a no go for arthritics), fish (super expensive here), egg, milk. It’s also in vegetables that are not favoured or are a no go in keto: oatmeal, whole grain products and legumes. Great that Avocado and Brokkoli are good sources for pantothenic acid. I love Brokkoli.
OK, I know you just wanted to recommend but it’s good for me make a proper note of it. :smiley:

(Kira) #45

Thanks Paul. You are so sensible and seem to always be saving me hours of googling stuff. :hugs:

(Kira) #46

Thank you and for your explanatory answer, scaperdude. What you write makes a lot of sense in my case.
My nutritionist said I should go on MCT oil when I have finished my glass of coconut oil/fat. This should be in January some time.

I have googled MCT oil and there seems to be some difference between MCT oils. Some consist of (or contain) cyprilic acid. These are more expensive than others that contain cyprilic acid (C8) and capric acid (C10). Is it true, that the C8 MCT oil is “more effective” than the one with a mix of C8 and C10, or is this just marketing talk? I wonder.

(Edith) #47

Hopefully, your nutritionist has warned you about the possible effects MCT oil can have on the digestive tract.

(Bob M) #49

Or if not, and you’re bothered by them, you’ll know pretty quickly. I have to use pure C8, otherwise I’m in the bathroom a while. From that perspective, C8 is better – for me. Not everyone is affected the same way.

(Kira) #50

Yes Virginia, she has warned me that some people don’t do well with MCT oil and said it takes getting used to. Some people feel sick and some people get diarrhea and whatnot. This is why my BPC contains coconut oil until January.

Thanks, ctviggen. I will keep this in mind when it comes to using MCT oil.

(B Creighton) #51

You are most welcome. I am not sure how much K2 and D3 supplementation will help arthritis. I don’t know of anyone who has overcome arthritis this way, but it does make sense because K2 reacts with matrix Gla protein to carry calcium away from the arteries, and the Gla protein then reacts with hydroxyapatite in bone material to deposit the calcium there. So to the extent that your arthritis is caused by extra calcium deposition, K2 supplementation may help… it should at least stop it from getting worse. I also know from my own mother who was essentially a raw vegan that vegans can get ossification of arteries and cardiovascular disease, and I believe it is from a lack of K2 in the diet.

I use both. I cook with butter, coconut oil and olive oil primarily. I also make smoothies with coconut milk which has MCTs to a lesser extent. I sometimes eat salad dressing homemade with MCT oil. MCT oil would be kind of expensive to cook with, and I don’t fear the lauric acid from coconut oil. It is very antimicrobial against certain bad guys.

There is some difference. There are basically three MCT fats: Caproic, Caprylic and Capric acids, although some consider Lauric acid an MCT. Caprylic acid(C8) uniquely has the ability to disassemble the cell walls of Candida yeast fungi, and will help keep it at bay. If you have a candida overgrowth, consuming this in large quantities may temporarily cause digestive issues as the candida dies off. If your goal is to control Candida, then yes, caprylic acid is going to be “more effective.” Lauric acid is a solid at room temperature, and is the primary reason coconut oil is solid. TBH, I do not concern myself with the other variations of MCT because I believe their health benefits are generally the same… they all get turned into ketones, but some people are more sensitive to them than others. I don’t seem to ever have experienced any digestion issues with them, but I generally do not consume much of them in their oil form. I get them mostly from goat yogurt and virgin coconut oil.

The smallest of them, the C6 form, is going to get absorbed the fastest, because it can pass right through the intestinal wall rather rapidly. However, that should merely take it to the liver via the portal vein, where it will get converted to ketones.

(Kira) #52

Thanks for breaking down the various fats. Since I am 60+ I don’t have any more Candida issues, although I remember having had them when taking antibiotics in my 30s and 40s. I’m envious that you enjoy goat yogurt (yuk!yuk!yuk!, sorry). From your contribution I think my feeling that coconut oil is just ok to keep in ketosis and save the money on MCT oil is confirmed. My nutritionist will hate me for this. :smiley:
I just need to lose another 6 or so kilograms, and I have all the time in the world to do so - so I will stay on the diet plan I got … well, I must admit that I did try and get rid of stuff in my fridge. This was NOT helpful to my diet, no matter that I did not consume any of the carbohydrates, or what I thought are carbohydrates. Duh!!
For instance, I wanted to get rid of my lot of mushrooms (400g). I fried them and added 150g chicken filet. The following day my scales showed an additional 2kg !!! of weight. This shows me that I have zero idea of ketogenic diet. My nutritionist was angry at me (arrggghh!!!) and told me to stick to the program she gave me 4 weeks ago. So, my program is: stick to the meals week 1-4 for the next 4 months! TBH, I feel like dependent on what she recommends. I am probably outdriving my headlights when I wish I could actually take control of what is in my fridge.

Being realistic though, for the time being I am repeating my 4-weeks-program until I learn how to take care of my diet myself! I would be happy to hear of someone that took care of their diet themselves (with the help of some program?).

(Edith) #53

Huh. 400g of mushrooms is only about 13-15 grams of carbs. I’m just wondering why that would have caused such a problem.

I’m very curious… what does your nutritionist have you eating in a day? Would you mind sharing?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #54

Weight is going to fluctuate. But if you gained 2 kg overnight, it was most likely water, not fat or muscle.

The key to a ketogenic diet is to keep carb intake as low as possible. This has the effect of lowering insulin, which is the main fat-storage hormone (among its many other jobs). So most of what you want to be eating is protein and fat; sugar, grains, and starches are not helpful on a ketogenic diet. This is the exact reverse of the diet advice that has been standard for the past fifty years. You can take the food pyramid promoted by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and basically stand it on its head: eat a lot of the things it tells you to eat very little of, and eat very little of the things it tells you to eat a lot of.

Don’t fear fat, and don’t fear calories. Again, the exact opposite of what they’ve been telling us. But it used to be very well known that carbohydrates (sugar, grains, and starches) are fattening. They only became "health food’ once we started fearing fat, and now we are paying the price for this misguided advice.

(Kira) #55

Hello guys and gals, finally I got my current blood results that I promised to share.
Amazingly, not much has changed. The HbA1c value that the forum is interested in hasn’t changed at all. It is a constant 5.5% or 36 mmol/mol. Potassium values are increasing (currently 5.54), maybe because I am increasing my spinach consumption.
My thyroid is still going crazy (so nothing to do with Keto). I have to lower the dosis still.
Rheumatoid factor is still going through the roof (currently 53.4, before keto 48.2) but funnily enough I am coping really well, no RA attacks or anything.

What has improved is my LDL cholesterol from 167 to no 117! YAY!!

(Kira) #56

Hi Virginia, I am as puzzled as you are. My weight hasn’t gone down visibly in the last 9 days either. It is fluctuating between 200-600g despite me keeping to my plan. The only thing I have changed is that I am not sticking to the weekly plan but to any daily plan I have received during the last 4 weeks. I am hooked on spinach casserole, which is quick to make and very tasty to me. Hm, how can I share what I am eating in a day when it is changing every day, and I have special daily recipes.
OK, my spinach “day” looks like this: bullet proof coffee with 15 grams of cocoa nut oil at 10am, 50ml of fat reduced milk (1.5%); lunch at 1.30pm: 250g of cottage cheese (40%) plus 50g Mascarpone, 10g walnuts, 80g blueberries; dinner at 6pm: spinach casserole (with mascarpone, creme fraiche, parmigiano, 1 egg, olive oil, salt, pepper, nutmeg, basil leaves).
daily intake: 27g carbohydrates, 140g fat, 51g protein = 1504 kcal).
another day has 23g carbohydrates, 135g fat, 65g protein = 1575 kcal.
another day has 30g carbohydrates, 102g fat, 42g protein =1345 kcal.
I do drink alcohol (wine spritzer), 500ml of sparkling water with 100ml of dry white wine (2 glasses).

(Kira) #57

I would also like to take the opportunity to wish you all a very merry Christmas and a peaceful and relaxing christmas time. Let’s hope for a much better world next year.
Hopefully, you all can spend the time with the people you love. xxx


Wow, you are s super responder. 8 lbs in 17 days is awesome. I have found that the vast majority of aches and pain will be reduced overtime. If you have a recent blood test look for the C-reactive protein number. This is one of the main markers of inflammation in the body. Then test again once goal weight has been achieved. Best of luck. Too much protein intake can be converted into glucose by a process called gluconeogensis

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #59

It’s not automatic, however, just because we eat more protein. It is a complex process and highly regulated by a number of factors, not just by the insulin/glucagon ratio.


100% agreed.

(Joey) #61

I hate to be a party pooper, but the LDL-C figure is the least relevant part of any lipid panel. Lower cholesterol is not even inherently a good thing… it really depends on context.

Most importantly perhaps are you HDL and Triglycerides … would you might sharing those?