Karim's muscle gain carnivore adventure

[Don_Q]

My lean mass is 140lbs so this is protein at 1.3g / lb of lean mass or 1 g / lb of total mass.

I usually do 0.7g / lb of lean mass so this is a big jump but I’m planning on pushing my lifting too

I can’t wait to see how the high protein affects your glucose and GKI. There is so much debate on this point with good evidence on both sides. Nobody has ever tracked GKI 6-8 times a day while doing carnivore OMAD though. Your n=1 will be pioneering and fascinating. We should get one of the mods to make you and @primal.peanut a some kind of keto science pioneer badge. Peanut for fasting and RMR tracking and you for GKI and fasting.

[Karim_Wassef]

As with most things, I think it depends…

GNG is demand driven - that is true when in a fasted state. The body will determine the appropriate level of glucose it needs based on exertion, glycogen levels, and availability of raw material (fatty acid / glycerol backbone vs. autophagic amino acid) as well as stimulus from hormones.

But in my experience, even with vegan proteins, excess amino acids have to go somewhere… and all muscle gain is demand driven too… so if there is no demand = more excess amino acids that need to be managed. Nitrogen compounds are important but also deadly and that’s why there’s a cycle to remove them and export them in urine… so, the body breaks down the amino acids, deaminates them to remove the Nitrogen and gets rid of the excess… the remainder just happens to be the building blocks of glucose… bam GNG. But this kind of GNG has a double whammy - first, protein by itself has an insulin response… and then second, the resulting glucose has a multiplying insulin response (more than just protein + just glucose).

So both things are true, but in the case of fasting, GNG is limited to the absolute necessity. In the case of exceeding protein, GNG is a bi-product of the limited need for new mass synthesis.

The excess protein amount is a function of two variables that I see: 1. the normal nitrogen cycle that happens all the time (even while resting) where old cells are destroyed and new cells need to be made. 2. the repair of damaged cells or need for new cells - this includes regeneration from weightlifting, etc…

So - to actually grow, I need to consume protein and work out enough to make that protein useful… Since I’m targeting 140g and I think my internal nitrogen needs are only 100g, then I need to cause enough damage to require 40g of daily repair… or else it gets turned into glucose, spikes insulin and causes fat gain.

That’s my current view - next comes data…

[Ilana_Rose]

Have you tried salting it while it’s dry aging?

No! I thought about it but wasn’t sure what the outcome would be and was too afraid of harming my yummy steak. I will do it next time. Thanks for the tip!

[Karim_Wassef]

Careful now - salt is very powerful. I like it like that but no one else in the family can handle it… they start comparing it for charcuterie … like beef prosciutto…

I would say a little goes a long way depending on how long you age it. One trick it so salt it for a day to dry out the surface as much as possible but then to remove as much of the salt as you can so it’s aging, not curing.

Then again, maybe I’m a salt freak and use more that normal people would…

[Karim_Wassef]

Ok. The fast is broken. I ate my first large carnivore heavy meal last night.

Before was 57G, 4.2K
After, I got to 95G, 1.4K

So… that’s an impressive change in metabolism. Wish I had an RMR to see how that meal alone impacted me. I haven’t done macros but I’m guessing it was probably 150g protein, 250g fat and 30g carbs (hard to negotiate with a wife who’s been cooking for 16 hours)… 3000 calories in one meal.

2 chicken thighs with grilled skin on
1 ribeye
Ox-tail in ox-tail soup
Marrow in bone - bone broth soup
3 egg yolks and 2 strips of bacon
Spicy beef stew
Spicy pork rinds
Vinegar starch-resistant rice and broth soaked keto bread (cultural dish made keto)
2 avocados and ginger strips
4 slices of cheese and 7 slices of prosciutto (I needed them)
Chocolate salt ACV drink with 5 tablespoons of HWC
2 milk choczero bars for desert (been fasting without for 55 days so I indulged)

Stomach hasn’t dealt with animal fat and protein in 2 months… but no real problems… I negotiated a settlement to continue to consume veggies Saturday and Sunday only but then I get to cut them out for the next 53 days.

I might make some exceptions like coffee, raw cacao, EVOO, pickled ginger strips etc… but I’ll get into that later.

I am very thirsty - clearly an insulin spiking meal, but my glycogen is probably filled up and the protein and fat digestion is creating new demands.

Curious what my morning blood tests & weigh in will reveal… still time to place your bets.

Hoping I just keep ketones above 1.0 after all that.

[Karim_Wassef]

here’s my closest estimate…

I was actually pretty close in my guess except for underestimating protein and overestimating carbs… so total is ~3000 calories.

and way over my protein target but I’ll settle down here in a bit. I did well with the things I had planned like the eggs and bacon, but the bone broth, cheese slices and prosciutto just took me over the edge.

I know there’s veggies in this list, but I believe in transparency and self accountability - so there it is… I’ll get better and more disciplined.

[goohsmom]

Keto meringues??

You can add cocoa powder if they like chocolate, too

[Karim_Wassef]

Day 2 of carni+

I gained 7.2 lbs overnight… I also woke up at 3:30am and drank jug after jug of water and I’m still very thirsty. A gallon of water is 8.34 lbs so I’m not surprised.

Also - I feel very sore and swole. I did a lot of manual labor fasted yesterday morning so I was expecting a little of it but wow. I have an old shoulder injury and semi-torn bicep tendon (shoulder insertion) and while I fasted, the inflammation went away - almost couldn’t feel it… but today it’s all back in pain.

I also have this effect where my arms and chest are more swole so I can’t quite get my elbows to my side. Overall feels like I’ve been beaten by a gang with rubber hoses… and still so thirsty.

All symptoms of major insulin but I expected it. I do want some of it but I want it to be intermittent so I can build after breaking vs being chronic.

Digestion ok but out of sync. Just taking longer but that’s because I’ve trained my gut to process vegetation so all this pure animal fat and protein requires it to reset some cultures in there.

The “electrodermal” measure on my iPhone is just where I store my ketone data…

And this is ketones hour by hour

And the trend for the month using daily average:

Glad the ketones are climbing again to 1.8 and GKI is 2.4… frankly after that meal, I thought I’d be under 1 ketones and closer to 4 GKI…

No heavy lifting today - sore and my bicep and shoulder are killing me.

[Karim_Wassef]

ALost half a pound in water before doing anything else so resetting the morning … 6.8 lbs gained overnight

[Karim_Wassef]

Since I’ve already embarrassed myself on the extended fast thread, I figure I’ll post the “before” view of this experiment (this morning) after one carnivore+ meal:

[Freischuetz]

where do you get bodyfat percentage from?

[Karim_Wassef]

Two ways - I go to get a DEXA scan every couple of weeks and I have a smart scale that uses body impedance. If I’m fasting, they don’t align, but if I’m eating, they usually do.

However, I will say that fat% is a function of hydration so if you’re dehydrated, the machines register differently for both lean and fat content.

[pamplemousse]

Knox gelatine is what I do. Found next to Jell-O in stores. It is plain, just the gelatin.

[Karim_Wassef]

here’s my DEXA history so far

and here’s the detail by body part

So during my fasting, I lost a total of 7 lbs of fat but also lost 2.6 lbs of lean mass.

I lost 0.4 lbs of lean in my arms, 2.2 lbs in my legs, 0.4 lbs in my glutes and 0.5 lbs in my midsection (lower back and abs). I neglected squats during my 19 day fast, so my legs showed it… so -3.5

However, I also gained 0.7 lbs in my chest and upper back and 0.2 lbs elsewhere… so +0.9

My baseline gain target for the next two months is to regain the 2.6 lbs of muscle and the stretch goal is to double that to get to +5 lbs of mass without gaining fat.

So - that’s impossible, right?

Usually, yes. But given that I’ve been fasting and most of the mass lost is probably prime for recovery, I think the 2.6 target is achievable. The other 2.4 are aspirational and I’m hoping I get some newbie gains since I haven’t really pushed myself while fasting.

and here’s my RMR history:

and my GKI and weight history:

and my glucose and ketone vs. GKI history:

These are basically my baseline

[Karim_Wassef]

Day 3

My body just loves to surprise me.

I was expecting to gain another 5lbs after eating mostly meat for two days starting from a vegan protein fast… I was also expecting to at least hold my ketones above 1.0 …

Instead, I lost 0.6lbs in 24hrs of eating. And my ketones bombed to 0.5…

So the 2 day result is +6.8 - 0.6 = +6.2

The three bets were:
Karim +7 + 5 = +12
Mario +5 + 3 = +8
Dena +4 + 6 = +10

So… I came in closest for day 1. Mario came in closest of day 2 and the total. And Dena was just wrong.

I’m not sure how to explain the weight loss and the crashing ketones, but here’s one hypothesis:

I’ve been eating high fiber vegan for a month after fasting. The only explanation is that the transition to meat and animal fat is releasing a lot of that digestive fiber that was artificially weighing me down.

The ketone drop is probably due to the absurd 180g of protein… so today will be one of carnivore self control… just eat to satiation, not for the pleasure of it.

The last time I was eating carnivore was February when I was 195… so 179 is 16lbs down in a similar metabolic and digestive state. Wish I had kept my DEXA scan today but the next one is in 5 days - this coming Saturday.

GKI at 9 and ketones at 0.5 so I would say I’m not really in fat burning mode… this is actually near anabolic in my view.

[Karim_Wassef]

Looking at my daily weight chart with the cyclic fasting - it looks very … predictable?

In fact, a weight increase this morning would have broken that cyclic progressive change.

It almost looks like the cycle troughs and peaks are kind of converging over time?

Maybe it’s my mind playing “pattern recognition” tricks on me, but what do you think?

[Karim_Wassef]

ketones went from 0.9 to 0.3 after this meal today:

The protein was way over the top, but it was very tasty and I indulged… a lot…

It’s a good thing I’m OMAD - my appetite is disproportional to my size.

267g of protein is almost 2g / lean mass… yowzers…

So this is still keto (13g), but I am not really in a catabolic state given that my RMR is 2400 and my intake is 3800 cal.

I think this will rev up my metabolism… maybe up to 3000 even, but I’m still deep into a surplus.

ok - tomorrow, I will really start to regain control and get to heavy lifting to tear it up.

Here’s the plan for tomorrow:

Wife made a lot of bone broth and ox-tail soup which I love… but I had no idea how much protein is in there… so I might even have to skip some steak days to consume it all (and avoid marital strife), then get back to steak.

[Ilana_Rose]

I’d be very interested in seeing ketones and glucose as a function of protein and maybe even protein+carbs unless your carbs are super stable.

[Karim_Wassef]

I don’t track food as well as I track blood, weight and DEXA/RMR so it’s directionally correct. I just think it’s too error-prone but it’s better than nothing.

I’ll post what I have.

[Karim_Wassef]

On Darren’s thread, Janie asked a similar question. I didn’t track macros much but my eating pattern yesterday was a shadow of how I used to eat back in the last carnivore eating event from Dec 26th to Mar 3rd.

Back then, I was probably closer to 6000 calories, not 4000 and a lot more meat. I gained 30lbs in 9 weeks… and I was fasting three days each week too (Wed, Thurs, Fri).

I wanted to see if it’s possible to eat <20g carbs, fast three days and still gain weight. My hope was that it would be lean muscle given my lifting regimen… but I hadn’t started using DEXA yet.

But I’ll say my macros were consistently under 20g of carbs… the fat to protein was probably 70% to 30% like above.