Karim's muscle gain carnivore adventure


(Monique) #301

It’s not you! You explain things really well. I just get overwhelmed by the data. I’m sure there are other folks who will understand and contribute. I’ll stay tuned in for the learnings :+1:


(Karim Wassef) #302

Glucose is only necessary for a minority of cells.

High glucose indicates that my dietary intake is basically above my body’s needs.

This usually goes hand in hand with insulin and the longevity research points to low glucose and low insulin as being keys to longevity and health.

This is because glucose oxidation is more destructive than fat oxidation (more free radicals) in mitochondria so it promotes faster aging and potential DNA damage.

Also, if I want to remain ketogenic, the liver uses glucose as a trigger and will no create ketones if glucose (and so insulin) is elevated.

This means that I would be storing fat instead of burning fat when glucose goes up.

I also feel better on high ketone, low glucose.


(Karim Wassef) #303

When I was fasting and eating vegan (last experiment), I had a hard time with sufficient protein on refeeds.

I eventually had to use pea protein soup to artificially boost my protein intake.

While I was on low protein, I couldn’t shake the fasting chills. I saw poor lean mass recovery even after refeeds and my weightlifting didn’t recover adequately. Once I got my protein up to 0.7, I felt substantial better in the gym.

This was supported with DEXA & RMR results a couple of weeks later.

The reality is that I don’t know the absolute minimum. I tried 0.2g/lb lean mass and it wasn’t enough… it subdued the chills but I still didn’t feel whole in the gym.

I didn’t walk between 0.2 and 0.7. The 0.7 aligned with the literature and it felt so much better. I pushed higher to 1.4 and didn’t see much of a difference vs. 0.7…

So my lower limit could be lower than 0.7, but that’s where I felt better. At 0.2… it wasn’t enough to perform in the gym.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/karims-extended-fast-tracker-come-along-for-the-ride/78183/10000


(Karim Wassef) #304

I will say that carni protein is NOT like vegan protein… the absorption is different and the amino acid profile is different.

To be more scientific, I should test with one type and walk between 0.2 and 0.7


(Mario) #305

same video as last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zX3tfuKIlo

just watch 2 minutes

“Glucagon is catabolic of fat tissue”


(Karim Wassef) #306

I don’t doubt that there is a rate limit. All biological processes have rate limits based on different transport mechanisms and availability of critical enzymes/hormones. There are bottlenecks in all processes so there is a rate.

I used the upper end of the range because I was skeptical too. If I’m wrong and the rate is higher, then this would still work, just that I wouldn’t be pushing myself hard enough and I could potentially lose fat faster. This looked good enough.

Also when I went back and looked at correlating my reduced RMR while fasting, it actually aligned with the 34cal/lb of fat rate. Basically my metabolism dropped to 1700 and my transfer rate was theoretically 1400… so the 300 coming from my lean mass to compensate was equivalent to 75g of protein a day lost. That’s about ~0.2lbs and was in the ballpark for the lean mass lost during my 19 day fast.

Actually, if I use that average, it would actually indicate that my body was catabolizing lean mass at 0.54g/lb lean mass. That is probably my low limit for lean mass maintenance.

That might answer the other question indirectly.


(Karim Wassef) #307

I’ve watched it and I get that… what do you feel I’m missing?


(Mario) #308

it would be perfect, if you only want to get rid of your bodyfat.

but in your case, to gain lean mass - it does not make sense to me. not at all. and because you like those numbers, the data will not be correct. your muscles at the legs are your biggest. so i can say, without any data here, your glucose spike will be different, compared to a workout with your arms or upper body.

and now you run the numbers and adjust… well… that will not work

give your body three weeks to adapt, and than adjust.

edit: or make 3 different diagram for each part of your body :smiling_imp:

if i am correct, you would need according to your workout a different amount of protein.


(Ilana Rose) #309

Love your thread, @Karim_Wassef. It’s very thought provoking, and you have a very open minded attitude towards your results that I very much appreciate.


(Karim Wassef) #310

Thanks. As a scientist, I accept that most of what we think we know is wrong… we just need to keep getting less wrong with more data and time :smiley:

Dogma doesn’t help. Data does.

I love that the experts in this community like Feldman and Bikman espouse the same ethos - “show me that I’m wrong so I can learn something new” … no ego


(Karim Wassef) #311

I agree with giving my body more time so I can make more calculated corrections.

I also agree that my true protein needs are a function of my exercise intensity and body focus.

And you’re also right that I will likely adjust my model as I refine my thinking :smiley:

I know this is crude, but it’s the best I can do. I’m open to suggestions on how to make it better.

I’m locked into two coefficients that could be wrong and are likely variables that are dependent on other independent factors like activity, hormones, etc… it’s better than the linear model but not great.


(Karim Wassef) #312

Glucagon does many things… it does catabolize fat to release glucose, but it can also do this with protein lean mass. The controlling variables in terms of what gets used depends on other hormonal states. If there is already an abundance of ketones, or adrenaline… that changes the ratios.


(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #313

Hey I have a basic question that I was wondering. Anyone can jump in here, as it seems like a good place to ask.

Do you feel that the liver is over-taxed being as it has to process a high amount of fat on a Ketovore/Carnivore diet? Part of the good benefits of eating leafy greens and other non-carnivore foods are the liver supporting components in them. Funny enough, the best thing for your liver, is liver! But there’s a lot of other liver supporting foods that don’t get eaten while just eating carnivore.

Do you think it ups the risk of gallstones and gallbladder/liver problems?


(Karim Wassef) #314

No. Processed foods and fruits stress the liver.
A well designed carnivore diet provides relief.

Eggs and liver… :wink:

Fat breakdown is actually not done in the liver. Our bile acts as a “solvent” breaking big fats into little fats and most of it is absorbed by the intestines.


(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #315

So you don’t think high fat, even naturally occurring fat from meat, make the liver work harder the more fat there is to process?

Agreed on the processed, for sure. I’m just picking brains here as it’s an interesting question to me.


(Karim Wassef) #316

I don’t think so and I haven’t seen any research that it would… but someone else may know more :slight_smile:


(CharleyD) #317

Hey @x-Dena-x if you’re thinking of the ectopic fat when someone has ‘fatty liver’ remember that that’s due to a de novo lipogenesis due to high carb intake. The liver has to work hard to store that sugar as triglycerides to store them.


(Karim Wassef) #318

Yup! That’s fructose causing liver damage…


(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #319

I get ya. It was an interesting thing because I hadn’t thought about it until I watched a Dr. Berg (I know…) video a while ago, and the reason he suggests you eat 8 truck loads of leafy greens, is to aid the liver in helping to process the extra fat that the liver has to work to process through Keto.

Then, I was talking to my mom who was experiencing some non-Keto related gallbladder symptoms (as it runs in our family), and she said she wanted me to be careful with Keto, because of that. I didn’t really have the info to refute her, and figured I’d ask around here and see what people have to say about it.


(Karim Wassef) #320

I had the opposite. I ate too many veggies and ended up with oxalates that caused kidney stones… the most horrific pain imaginable!!!

I’m good with pain but I was not good with THAT pain. Veggies are evil, I tell you.

If you don’t have a gall bladder, that could compromise fat digestion. If you’re not making enough bile salts… that too. If your stomach acid is too low, you may not be able to concentrate the bile enough … but the liver is fine. This is what it does.