K9 diet?


(karen) #82

I don’t know about whether cats benefit from fasting, but I couldn’t possibly fast them for 24 hours, overnight is a cat-astrophe already. :grin:


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #83

If we were to try it with our kitties, there would be lots of cat-erwauling! :smile:


(Jason Christianson) #84

Meow


#85

Love this thread, we are getting a puppy in a few weeks, & am looking into feeding her raw food, hubby not keen as it does make it harder, you have to think ahead. I’ve read conflicting views on whether you can mix raw with kibble, it’d be nice to at least give her some raw food. Some sites say the stomach ph & digestion rates are different & other sites say that’s a myth… I think maybe at different meal times might be all right, any expert opinions?


#86

I haven’t researched the pH issue so I can’t claim to be an expert on that, but personally I think it would be fine. I believe there’s plenty of benefit from supplementing kibble with fresh food. If you’re worried that a lower pH would result from the kibble, making potential pathogens in a raw diet more risky, you can always used cooked meat instead. If cooking meat turns out to be too labor intensive, you can consider boiling a bunch of eggs ahead of time and add one of those to each meal. You may have to see what works for you and your puppy, but it’s great you’re doing your research, I’m sure you’ll find a solution.

On another note, I’m on a forum for veterinarians and I can’t even tell you guys how dismayed I am by the comments being made there about the recent association of grain-free diets and dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs. The causation is not really about whether the diets are grain-free, it’s been shown to be associated with diets that have potatoes, peas, or legumes as one of the first few ingredients, and it appears to be reversible by taking the dogs off those diets. But of course the whole debate has become about whether grain-free was ever a good idea. It’s the snarky tone of the anti-grain-free contingent (most of the comments, unfortunately) that depresses me. Instead of supporting the search for the true root cause of the problem, they just can’t wait to shove this story in front of their clients who think grain-free is better. Fortunately there are some comments that are pushing against this logic, but you can’t argue science with people who think AAFCO standards are the definitive word on what makes for good nutrition in pets and who think vet school taught them everything they need to know about it. If you have a vet who listens to your concerns, admits to our field not being a 100% sure about the ultimate dietary requirements for pets, and is willing to keep an open mind and support you, I humbly suggest thanking them for it next time you see them. We are not exactly being supported within the profession, and the appreciation of clients makes a huge difference to our state of mind. It’s just demoralizing… Had to get that off my chest. So glad you guys are here to listen to my rant. :blush:


#87

Thanks, I’ll be talking to my vet about it, & if she’s supportive then I’ll be sure to let her know it’s appreciated! She’s a bit of a star & spotted a rare condition (GME) in my sister’s dog just in the nick of time, saving her life, so we all think she’s great, it’ll be interesting to see her opinion on this!


#88

That’s wonderful, I’m so glad you’ve found her! Sounds like she’s someone who goes the extra mile to be thorough and do her research (probably on her own time). A trusting relationship and good two-way communication is so important. That way, when her judgement about something is different from your own, whether it’s about raw food or something else, you know she’s sharing the best of her knowledge in the true interest of you and your pet and not vested in just “being right”. It’s that need to project oneself as an infallible authority that drives me nuts. I think my job is to inform people to best of my ability about the risks and benefits of any decision, and then support them with whatever decision they end up making.

I was feeling particularly sensitive yesterday after reading all those posts on the other forum, but I feel much better this morning! :joy: Which is good because I’m working today. It’s true how much having trusting relationships with clients gets us through the stressful aspects of this job, though. So, the gratitude definitely goes both ways, and I’ve often said the words “Thank you for your trust in me”. :heart:


(Jason Christianson) #89

@Callisto you ruined my life, lol…

You got me reading and researching a lot more and now over the past several weeks we have the cats and the dog transitioned over to a raw diet. For the cats I’m doing the TC feline premix and for the dog we’re just making our own. I did look up the raw bistro as a starting point and your description seems pretty accurate, it would put me in the poorhouse. Considering they are local and not far from my house I was hoping I’d fare better but I think I could get by cheaper feeding her prime rib :wink:

Here’s a question for you… How long do you leave food out before picking it up? The dog is easy, 60lb lab inhales everything put in front of her. So we’ll just have to adjust the amount as time goes on based on her condition. The cats are tougher because we have always free fed them so they’re used to eating 2 bites then coming back 15 minutes later for another 2 bites. Right now we’re feeding them 1/4c 2x per day and they only eat about half of it. Now sure how long I can get away with leaving it out before you have to worry about it not being safe for them.


#90

That’s great, Jason! Let me know how it goes, any changes you notice in them, etc. I’m just curious. One thing, now that you’re on the “real food for pets” bandwagon :blush:, I think it’s a good idea to build in a little variation too. I may have said this before but the history of determining pet food nutritional requirements is a history of responding to crises caused by previously unknown deficiencies. There’s also a long history of pet food recalls stemming from foods that have nutrient deficiencies or food that is contaminated with something or other. I’m not saying switch up the diet all the time, that can cause issues too for some pets, but I think (if you can) a good strategy is to feed two different formulations, from two different manufacturers, and just rotate them so your pet gets a mix over the course of each week. That’s ideal, but do what you can, you’re already well ahead of the game here. For your dog, it could mean just using two different reputable premixes or using a couple different multivitamin/mineral supplements.

I also say it with a little trepidation despite my feeling that variety is usually good, because a few years ago my cats were on TC Feline as well as a very high-quality canned diet (so I thought), getting some of each every day, and they both suddenly developed pancreatitis, which is not a communicable disease so the timing really pointed to the food. Several of my clients who feed the same canned diet also were bringing their cats in to me within those same few weeks with the same issue, so that food has been off the table for me ever since. TC Feline I’ve been feeding for many years and have never had an issue, so now that’s all my cats get, but I think a good multivitamin never hurts.

Back to your question though. Back when my cats were younger, they would eat all their food right away, probably because they weren’t used to grazing. As they got older though, they don’t tend to finish everything right away and I find myself leaving the food out for them more and more as it’s important they keep eating. It leads to a cycle where they just have the expectation of grazing, so it’s worth trying to break if you can. But sometimes you have to compromise, they are cats after all. LOL

So, I think you have to consider your own tolerance for risk here. I do everything I can to mitigate the possibility of food-borne pathogens but there’s no such thing as eliminating it entirely, of course. I leave food out overnight for them now, and have not had any issues. I do always mix in extra water so their food is a little soupy (and so it doesn’t dry out), and I put it out at late as I can, usually around 10 or 11 pm. By the morning it’s all gone, I don’t know when they have finished it, but I doubt it’s before 3 or 4 am. I realize this sounds nuts, and if I weren’t so concerned with my elderly cats eating well and maintaining their weight, I wouldn’t do it. But for the record, so far I have had no issues.

So my opinion (based more on personal experience than professional knowledge) is that leaving it out for a couple of hours is not going to be a problem.


#91

Also, regarding Raw Bistro, I’d be curious to know if you contacted them directly for any lower cost options and if so, what they said. You could butter them up by saying a vet highly recommended it to you and you want to support them. :blush: Maybe since you are local they could work something out, especially if you’re able to buy in bulk.

p.s. nothing wrong with bypassing the mfrs and making your own though!


(Jason Christianson) #92

Yes, I did find that it is good to have some variety. So I’ve mixed up two batches, this time it’s beef and chicken, Then I can rotate what I feed them. Both have different types of liver from different sources as well. When I can, for the dog, since I don’t have a premix I’m going to get some other types of offal in there besides liver as well.

Thanks for the info on leaving out. Yeah, it seems pathogens from food being our for a few hours is the least of your concerns vs the crap in store bought pet food.

One of the big “ah ha” moments for me is reading about the detrimental health effects of feeding dry food cats. Like most, I always thought it was the healthiest option. That they needed the dry food for their teeth. However, I’ve had 2 cats pass, not too long ago, from kidney failure and it sounds like that is a common prob with dry pet foods in cats.

No I didn’t contact raw bistro directly since they do sell direct off their website. I figured that they would have the same prices, minus the shipping, if I offered to pick up directly.


#93

This is great. :blush: And getting enough minerals like calcium (present in bone but not so much in the meat) is the biggest issue that can happen with a deficient homemade food, so keep stuff like that in mind. It’s why I recommend premixes, but it’s not impossible to do on your own.

Yup, exactly.

So true. I am thankful that more and more vets are recommending wet food only for cats. You’re really feeding the best thing possible now, in my opinion.

I’m so sorry to hear about your kitties. Were they related? I keep referring to “my cats” but I only have one now. My cats (who are from the same litter) both developed chronic kidney disease at age 16, and one of them passed away (but not from complications of the kidney issues, he was sort of a lemon his whole life and had numerous issues) in December just shy of 18 years old. My other cat is still doing quite well despite having lost a lot of muscle mass over the past year, her kidney disease appears to be stable.

I frequently wonder if their diet did anything to delay a congenital predisposition to kidney disease, or conversely if it did anything to cause it or even just exacerbate it. Kidney disease is incredibly common, and I see it in cats from age 7 all the way to very late in life, and I do feel that diet can make a big difference but it would take a well-formulated 20 year study to establish what the factors may be, and who knows if that will ever be done. :frowning_face: SO many cats get it though, I think it would be a huge contribution.

It sounds like you’re doing fine feeding your dog on your own, so maybe it’s not worthwhile. I figure they are still a small company though, the worst they can say is no. I feel like if it were my company I’d want to get locals on board as much as possible. But then, I’ve never had a good head for business!


(Jason Christianson) #94

Both that had the kidney failure were not related to one another but they died approx 1 year apart. Both were quite young too, less than 10 years old. No other health problems (other than being fat) and the same thing in both cases. One day they were healthy and active and two weeks later they’re almost too weak to walk. Heartbreaking.


#95

I’m so sorry to hear that. It is heartbreaking for sure. Given how common the condition is, it’s hard to know how much diet played into it for them. These days I feel like I’m able to manage most cases of it for a good year and a half or two years at least, sometimes much longer. But it depends on so many things. it’s not the right answer in every case from a quality-of-life perspective for the cat (or the owner for that matter) to be poking it with a needle a couple times a week for hydration or wrangling it every day to get pills into it. Sometimes you have to just let it be. My remaining 18 year old kitty won’t tolerate it much, she’s only on a potassium supplement that gets mixed into her food. I’m sure I could fix other complications of the disease if I would apply a greater tough love approach, but I’m not willing to do it at this stage of her life. Not for prolonging a disease that will eventually claim her anyway.