# Just needing some fresh encouragement

(Joey) #22

Well, perhaps I’m tripping over my own algebraic shoelaces here…

If the fiber is not related to the carb content, it wouldn’t be part of the carbohydrate section of the US nutrition label, would it?

If it gets added to the carbohydrate subsection regardless, then yes you’re right. The gross carb figure would be grossed up even further by the extraneous non-carb fiber added.

If not, it wouldn’t. Do you happen to know how the Food and Drug Admin regulates such things? I have no specific knowledge and perhaps I’m guessing incorrectly.

(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #23

No, again sorry.

Take the box of penne I found in the pantry: the product contains 42 total grams of carbohydrate in one 56-gram serving. Each serving also contains 3 grams of fibre.

In the U.S., the label would say “total carbohydrate = 42 g,” and the 42 contains the 3 g of fibre, so net carbohydrate would be 42 - 3 = 39 g per serving.

In Europe, the label would say “net carbohydrate = 39 g,” and the 39 would therefore not contain the 3 g of fibre, so total carbohydrate would be 39 + 3 = 42 g per serving.

In both cases total fibre = 39 g digestible carbohydrate (net) + 3 g indigestible carbohydrate (fibre) = 42 g. The equation for total carbohydrate remains 39 + 3 = 42, and the equation for net carbohydrate remains (39 + 3) - 3 = 39. The arithmetic remains the same, regardless of legal jurisdiction.

This would all be easier to grasp if all jurisdictions followed the same practice.

(Joey) #24

@PaulL Well then, thank you for setting me straight on the labeling math.

Having just read: https://www.fda.gov/media/113663/download I’m still left a bit confused. So adding “stems, branches, and trunks of trees” and “wood pulp” to processed food would add to the carbohydrate count (and the dietary fiber count)? Seems so.

My math above is incorrect.

But my metabolic concern remains the same: You cannot avoid the insulin spike from eating a bowl full of sugar by also eating a bowl full of wood pulp at the same time.

“Keto” bread that is made from wheat starch + oat fiber (as separate ingredients) does not produce a low carb “keto-friendly” product in any sense of the term. At least in a sense that’s useful for a carb-restricted WOE.

Sorry to all for getting myself twisted up in how the gross carbs are calculated here in the US.

(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #25

Bingo!

#26

This I have always understood with no problem. I know what net carbs are versus total carbs and why. I know that any food that does not have an impact on insulin because it goes right through the body is considered insoluble. Such as fiber and some non-sugar sweeteners. Like erythritol. It bypasses the liver completely and exits the body in under 24 hours through our urine. No metabolic effect at all. So I have always subtracted fiber and the sugar alcohols IF they are erythritol or stevia or monk fruit.

But I still don’t understand when a food and the ingredients that make up the recipe for that food, (Aldi’s bread) uses grains converted to be fully 100% fiber can’t be deducted from total carbs. I’m trying to wrap my head around Joey’s explanation about fiber that is not encased in carbs vs fiber that is. It’s still not making sense to me.

#27

But my metabolic concern remains the same: You cannot avoid the insulin spike from eating a bowl full of sugar by also eating a bowl full of wood pulp at the same time.

But there isn’t a bowl full of sugar or even 100g of sugar in the Aldi bread. Not even close.

But I like that you got me to look more closely at the ingredients!

As far as I can tell, the Aldi bread has “modified” the wheat starch to a pure fiber form. According to Bob’s Red Mill site modified starches are “…physically, enzymatically, or chemically altering starch to change its inherent properties. In this instance, modified does not necessarily mean genetically modified.” There is no clear research if any of the wheat starch afterwards is still digested or not. Some think some still is, but it is all theoretical and conjecture. If any is digested it would be a very small amount per slice and wouldn’t be more than a 1g carb impact per slice at most, probably less, which is still great for such soft, full sized bread. Other than the ridiculous and stupid choice of the soybean oil, it is the only other ingredient that might make someone question its keto-friendly status, because of the potential minor impact to carbs.

The wheat gluten doesn’t directly cause a metabolic response because it’s essentially low in carbs. It’s only a problem for those with gluten sensitivities and I don’t have that.

The wheat protein isolate is in the same boat. Only a concern for celiac disease or someone with gluten sensitivities.

Oat fiber is one of the few ingredients in this bread that is actually fully keto. It’s an insoluble fiber created from the hull of oats and not digested, so it has no impact on blood glucose levels.

Chickory root contains a prebiotic dietary fiber called inulin. I don’t know enough about it so I Googled it and the first result said “Inulin is a type of dietary fiber. Research has linked it to several health benefits, such as improving digestive health, helping control diabetes, and aiding weight loss. Inulin is a dietary fiber that may benefit gut health”

Wheat bran is very high in fiber. It contains 20g of carbs and 14g of fiber per ½ cup. That’s 6g net and I doubt there is 1/2-C in the whole loaf, much less a single slice. But again, it’s not gluten-free, and again not a concern for my body.

Compared to all the other low-carb/no-carb wannabe breads out there, this was the only one to be full size (Sola is literally American Girl Doll sized,) stays soft like traditional bread, and holds up to liquid, and … not taste like pure cr*p, and it had the best ingredients I’ve seen so far, albeit far from perfect because some bozo who doesn’t fully understand keto or know we also care about the quality of foods we eat chose to use soybean oil rather than avocado or coconut oil or something else that’s healthier. No doubt a money saving issue. Thank God I don’t eat that much of it throughout a week. I’m more concerned about the oil used than I am the fiber used!

I’m willing to hear if any of these ingredients are bad for us in other ways. And I’m willing to hear if there is potentially more than 2g carb per slice. Keto is not a no-carb diet, it’s a very low carb diet, but I’ve always understood that we can choose how to spend those 20 carbs and most of them should be healthy carbs and not empty/cr*p carbs like corn syrup or maltodextrin etc.

I thought I had found a fairly clean Keto bread if eaten occasionally and not every single day, out of a lot of bad choices out there. (I know we can make our own but my skills with keto baking ingredients are not yet up to par to be able to do that - yet.) But any additional insight about it or counterpoints to my points would be awesome. Like I said, I want to know my choices have me on a good path.

(Joey) #28

As you can appreciate, it was just an illustration of a larger point

You’re doing all the research you reasonably can to understand what’s what - kudos.

Everyone’s best path to success evolves over time, and what works for a particular individual may not work as well for another, either now or later in life.

My suggestion is that, after you’ve gathered what you can from various (often competing) sources, you see what works best for you - at this point in time. If certain foods keep you satiated while you get closer to your health goals, excellent. Be willing to make some midcourse adjustments along the way - and plow onward.

At this rate, you’ll be teaching (and encouraging) the next wave soon. Keep learning and pay it forward!

(Joey) #29

@PaulL You know, I’ve continued to reflect on the “gross carb vs net carb” thing and I’m still struggling. Perhaps you can help …

Below is the label for Aldi’s zero net carb bread. There are 10g of carbohydrates and 10g of insoluble fiber. Ergo, “zero” net carbs.

Looking at the ingredients, we see several carbohydrate sources, including “modified wheat starch,” “yeast,” and “wheat gluten.”

In the US: Gross carbs - fiber = “net” carbs
Thus: Gross carbs = net carbs + fiber, no?

So since the gross carbs on the Aldi bread = 10g, and the fiber = 10g, then the “net carbs” = 0. In other words, 100% of the gross carbs are simply insoluble fiber.

I’m struggling with how this could be given these primary carb-laden ingredients.

Is the answer simply that “net carbs” is a meaningless construct?
Are manufacturers able to “hide” carbs by spiking the recipe with fiber?
What am I missing?

(Bob M) #30

That’s enough to give me gas and gastrointestinal distress, just reading the label. More power to you, if you can eat that.

(Joey) #31

Yeah, we didn’t get into the monoglycerides, soybean oil, and inulin. But why digress?

(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #32

Well, the arithmetic is indeed correct. If all the carbohydrate in a product is fibre, then it contains 0 net carbs. Of course, if one is counting total carbs, then one includes the fibre. Now, whether the claim of 0 g of carbohydrate is realistic or not is another question, but the carbs among the ingredients of this product all look like fibre to me. Remember that, just like digestible carbohydrates, fibre is made of glucose molecules. The only difference is that in the case of fibre, we lack the enzymes to break them down into their constituent glucose molecules.

(However, the wheat gluten and the soybean oil would put me off this product. Not that you asked, lol!)

#33

Well the wheat gluten doesn’t directly cause a metabolic response because it’s essentially low in carbs. It’s only a problem for those with gluten sensitivities. If you don’t have gluten sensitivities then it’s not a carb concern. It’s also much further down on the ingredient list so not a primary amount.

But the soybean oil is a bummer for me. Totally stupid move on their part to an almost perfect bread. I end up having 1-2 slices per week and thats the only source of any soybean oil for me. So far no problems.

But like I said before, compared to the ingredient list for all the other no-carb or low-carb breads, this one is definitely better than any of the others and not unenjoyable to eat at all.

Perhaps I shall write Aldi and tell them “almost, not quite - ditch the soybean oil… Lol.

#34

I don’t even know anything about soybean oil but it never was significant in my diet… My body is pretty great to handle about anything even remotely edible in tiny amounts but I quickly went on the “I make everything I can from scratch” route as I had to do that anyway when my diet got stricter (I had a short paleo period and I didn’t just add back most of the non-paleo stuff later).
I have no problem with gluten but it does contain some carbs. I have no problem with some carbs either, just saying. It hardly can be really zero carb if it has gluten or they use some special gluten where they could get out the carbs? I know exactly nothing about such procedures…

I probably would use such items short term if they wouldn’t cause problems but would solve some… I know I can change so I eventually would eat cleaner.
But as I dropped most processed stuff way before keto, it’s just hypothetical. (Not like I don’t eat absolutely horrible but super delicious things occasionally but it’s very, very rare and I can handle it and it’s worth it for me.)

#35

Lol ya me too. I mean i don’t eat any other prepackaged foods other than this bread and La Banderita 0-carb Street Taco tortillas, which uses EVOO. Fluffy little pillows of heaven I call them. Lol

But I don’t buy anything else and hand make all my other food. Oh wait, does that include yogurt? That’s premade - I do buy yogurt. I have a yogurt maker but have never tried to use it.

My “horribly delicious foods” that I eat or “cheat” with are my homemade keto desserts, like my pumpkin bread or lemon bars or my fat bombs. Basically I cheat with erythritol. I dont eat those every day but maybe I’ll have something every other day. I haven’t had the urge to eat anything not in the keto diet window yet. I’m sure one day is coming where I’ll get a raging hunger pain while away from home and be at the mercy of offerings that aren’t keto friendly. But I don’t leave my house much other than physical therapy, so it may not happen for a while.

(Joey) #36

Perhaps these are all “fiber” carbs that we cannot break down and digest. Perhaps not. I find this assumption extremely difficult to accept as a matter of common sense. Al the more so after researching a bit more on modified wheat starch (modified enzymatically, physically or chemically).

Have a look at “modification” process and see if you can comfortably imagine that the carbs remain bound up in their original fiber entrapment:

I’m guessing that when fibers are shuffled off to the side and the starch is then “concentrated,” it leaves the insoluble fiber in a position to no longer encapsulate anything. Then, oat fiber is a separate additive in this bread product, likely added to boost the label’s fiber content… and bring the “net” carbs down, algebraically.

I’m now assuming that modified wheat starch is a highly digestible carb, not an indigestible one.

On a related, but separate topic, this ditty about wheat starch might offer some sidebar entertainment…
https://www.abingtonhealth.org/healthy-living/health-news/library/articles-related-to-strokes/wheat-and-modified-starches-may-increase-stroke-risk/

(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #37

Resistant starch is processed in some way, so as to make it indigestible. It can then be sold as a cheaper form of fibre (and presumably a form that is less likely to spoil than the fibre that originally came with the food) to add to your product. More artificial goodness, yum!

P.S.—What do “drvin” and “drvina” mean in that flow chart? Do you know?

(Joey) #38

I presumed it had something to do with derived / derivative … but honestly have no idea. Google was of little help for an English definition.

#39

I am at home a lot but I still think that danger is pretty low for me.
I can’t even have raging hunger pain anymore… So I can fast. And I bring food if I leave my home. Sometimes I am too optimistic and I don’t do that but I can find a supermarket… Not like that would be enough, I need quite big meals when really hungry and I don’t buy ready to eat cooked meat. Still, I can buy this and that (dairy, processed meat) and mitigate my problems.
I go off keto for other reasons, mostly. But my average carb intake significantly dropped since I went keto the first time. I start to be pretty happy with what I can do now.

I consider yogurt okay. I can’t imagine bothering with making it, it’s quite pure, mine wouldn’t be any better.