JUNE 2021 IF/EF Chat Thread (All Welcome)

#35

I get it. I now often just sit with my family and just drink something and chat without eating. I try to tell my wife to forget about making me something keto and just worry about feeding the kids. Fitting their meals into my weird schedule/WOE doesn’t necessarily work. Today they ate early. I didn’t because I’m trying to stretch out my fast from overnight. I haven’t had any HWC or anything yet today and I’m curious to see what happens to my ketones. 0.3 at 11AM and 0.5 at 3PM. More depressingly BG was 120 at 11AM and 103 at 3PM

#36

Just checked again. Ketones up to 0.6 but blood glucose stubborn at 107 at 5:45PM after fasting all day.

I don’t know what to think about the blood sugar. Based on experience if I ate some protein right now and check in 30-60 minutes it would probably drop well below 100. I guess eating triggers enough insulin to finally push glucose into the cells, otherwise my muscles seem to run on fatty acids and resist taking up the glucose - adaptive glucose sparing they call it. I even went for a 30 minute bike ride around 10AM.

#37

My eating window got bigger again but today my lunch was so very effective that it’s 9pm and I am still very satiated (but it may be masked a tiny bit by the lots of water I drink, it’s super hot and I did garden work. water does absolutely nothing to hunger but maybe helps with not getting hungry without a good reason :D).
So unless I mess it up later, it’s an OMAD day again, yay! I go for more OMAD days. The timing is easy: when I don’t want to wait anymore, it’s not like I have much control, I get appetite or hunger and must eat… Now I can do lunch OMAD, it seems and it helps a lot as I don’t always last until dinnertime. Mostly because I want a family lunch after cooking, lack of serious hunger be damned… Though I still think my natural OMAD time is around 4-6pm… That seems the perfect time as long as my body cooperates but it often does. I eat earlier and there are more than 12 hours between meal and bedtime and that’s too much for me, below 8 is safe (with the proper OMAD meal, of course), 8-12 is uncertain. I am very sure 2 meals are too many for me now, I can’t do small meals lately.

(Jane) #38

I hear ya. I miss being able to fast for 3 days when I am traveling, not with colleagues and can fast to my hearts content.

I cannot do that now that I am working from home. My husband cannot go more than 36 hrs and he gets upset if I am not eating with him. Thankfully I have the 36-hr fasts occasionally.

(Bob M) #39

It might be more complex than that. For me, exercise causes my blood sugar to go up. Yes, up. I think this is because I’ve been low carb for so long that my body “knows” it has to get glucose from somewhere.

If you eat protein, your blood sugar should not change. I’ve eaten 160+ grams of protein in single meals, and never got any blood sugar change – ever.

You’re thinking that protein = higher insulin = lower blood sugar. That makes sense. But, you forgot about glucagon. Glucagon is the “mirror image” to insulin. As your blood sugar starts going down due to insulin, glucagon should come up to raise it. Ben Bikman has a good YouTube video on this. I think this is it:

Bikman’s glucagon talk

If, though, you find your glucose going down if you eat protein, this means your glucagon response is not as good as it should be. Some people (notably Jimmy Moore) have this, but I’ve not seen a “cure” for it.

The other option could be that you’ve provided your body with food, and that alone causes blood sugar to come down. For instance, I’m convinced if I ate breakfast, I’d have lower blood sugar earlier. Currently, my blood sugar goes up from sometime around midnight until close to 11 am or do, then goes down all day until around midnight. I don’t eat breakfast and often don’t eat until 10am-11am (or a few days a week until dinner).

I don’t think this is insulin, though. To check, you could eat a high fat, lower protein meal. Does your blood sugar go down?

#40

Lunch and only a tiny snack at dinnertime today. It was a good day! I was not satiated some hours before lunch but not hungry just not the usual perfect satiation I am used to. Probably due to the very low-cal previous day.
I even cycled and weightlifted but my body isn’t particularly greedy now, it seems. Hopefully the rest of the week will be just as easy and good. At least the weekdays…

(Bob M) #41

I’m trying for two OMADs this week.

As for choosing to not eat with the family in order to make a 36+ hour fast, that’s a tough one. I have two teenage (ok, one teen, one 'tween who thinks she’s a teen) daughters. The pressure on them to be “thin” must be incredible. The last thing I want to do is to encourage some type of eating disorder.

For a 55+ year old male who has done extensive damage to his metabolism over 30+ years, I think fasting helps repair some of that.

For a teen girl, I’m not sure fasting is good. Skipping snacks? Probably fine. Eating two meals a day? I’m not sure that’s necessary, but it might be OK. OMAD? I don’t think with their normal level of exercise (and growth) that’s sustainable. Going one or more days without eating? Probably not good, if any of the impetus is because of a body image issue.

If I eat OMAD, my kids don’t have to know I haven’t eaten all day.

On the other hand, I would like to build up again to some infrequent 3.5-4.5 day fasts. Hard to do if the kids are home every night and we’re having dinner, but I might have to rethink. (When my wife and I were fasting before, it was years ago, and the kids were younger. Also, if it’s during the school year, they have so many events like dance, karate, etc., that we can pick them up from there, and they wouldn’t realize we hadn’t eaten.)

If I can figure out a way to introduce the idea of long fasts while at the same time not encouraging it for the kids, I might do it. I’m thinking about it…

#42

Actually just ate some lunch, and was at 25 hrs., or simply an OMAD. Wasn’t planned, but had an eye appointment last night that ran a little late, so just decided to skip dinner, even though it wasn’t too late.

As for your Daughters, Bob, I’ve read others mentioning similar things as to not letting their kids on the fact they Fast, or skip meals, etc. And maybe this is the best choice? … But as I remember mentioning then, it might not be a bad thing either? Educating them at an earlier age would definitely give them a leg up on most adolescents these days and maybe have a better understanding about carbs, and the trouble they can cause some folks, etc. … Again, not saying one is better than the other, but for me I do wish I knew then what I know now, and wonder just how things might have been different if someone had introduced me to this WOE, along with IF/EF, etc. - But that’s just my personal opinion. And I too am 55, but my Son is 36 and does eat this WOE and also Fast… But I think he would have benefited knowing all this at an earlier age too, as would a lot of us.

Not to mention with today’s technology, social media, etc., it wouldn’t surprise me that they might probably already have quite a bit of knowledge on these subjects already.

#43

Another OMAD day… I wasn’t particularly hungry at 7pm and my appetite was slightly negative but it still seemed a good idea to have a meal so I had a modest sized but long term satiating one again. Wow. This week goes very well and if I will feel similarly in the future, a longer fast seems quite possible.

(Central Florida Bob ) #44

I’ve been listening to/watching a lot of Jason Fung’s videos lately and it’s a key part of his message that the obsession with eating even three meals a day is new in human history. His main point is that snacking every few hours coincides with the start of the obesity epidemic in the early '80s. He argues (and my experience growing up is the same way) that back in the '60s, we had breakfast, lunch and dinner, and if I had wanted a snack, mom would have something unpleasant to say. It used to be punishment to be sent to bed without dinner, now it’s voluntary.

For a teen girl, skipping snacks is fine. Two meals a day, which generally means skipping breakfast when our normal circadian rhythms typically suppress hunger, is fine. Making sure they eat real food with real nutritional value is the most important thing. You’ve got all that down.

(Bob M) #45

That is good news, Shinita.

I also made OMAD yesterday, and only ate a bit within a short window. That’s a first (normally, I’ll eat, then do something, then eat more, …).

(Bob M) #46

I don’t know, Bob. Things are…different since you and I grew up. Two years ago, my daughter went to Girl Scout sleep away camp. All the girls began announcing their sexual orientation (for lack of a better phrase). There was lesbian, non-binary, trans, etc., but no heterosexual. Not one was heterosexual.

So, not only do girls have unreasonable expectations placed on their bodies by the ultra-thin women they see in ads and movies, but now they feel they have to announce and decide on their sexual orientation while not even teens. We know so many families with daughters who are using different names and/or are non-binary or the like. And the girls are young.

They are already under massive stress and in tremendous turmoil. To add to that with my fasting, I can’t tell if that might be too much.

I listened to a podcast by a woman who fought through her own body image stuff and food, and she related how, while she was able to save herself, some she knew died. The basically ate (or did not eat) themselves to death.

I’m reluctant to add anything more to my kids. I believe fasting has benefits, for older men like me in particular. But can my daughters handle this info? I’m not sure.

And even we have a hard time controlling what our kids eat. Go anywhere – and I do mean anywhere – and you’ll get snacks and dessert and pizza. And if kids come over, we’ll have snacks ready. Not because we think they are good, but because it’s expected. We try to make the snacks as “good” as we can, but no kid is going to eat pepperoni for a snack.

#47

Not exactly OMAD today but close enough. I lost all interest in food, it seems. I just don’t get hungry and my appetite is always very low, around zero.
I still didn’t feel a fasting day is what I should do, maybe later. If I keep feeling like this, I eventually won’t bother with eating every day. But I am a tad careful now as it can backfire if I say no to my tiny borderline hunger (I often don’t have anything stronger). But I hate starting to eat an early dinner just to realize I can’t do more than a few bites. This week is odd, I never had this even in heatwaves… Though we rarely have this high temperature already in June, I am not used to summer yet let alone this. We normally have such weeks in August. The lawn already died in the most sunny place, it never even dies every year…
Hungary reached a record electricity usage.

Wow, Bob. How things changed, indeed… Okay, I live elsewhere anyway but when I was a teen, it was so different. Sexual orientation? I didn’t know my own gender at 17 :smiley: And I had no idea there are more than 2, I just realized it myself as I couldn’t put myself into either box, no matter hard I tried… Sexual orientation? I probably figured it out way after 30 (or could assign a label. I probably had some vague idea but it didn’t matter much anyway, I already found my SO)…

Sometimes I feel lucky we don’t have gendered nouns in my language…

There are better sweets… And I can’t imagine there are no kids who loves pepperoni as a snack… It sounds a way better snack than most and I thought similarly as a kid (I just didn’t eat pepperoni. my favorite snack was mustard and pickles. but I loved sweets too while some people don’t).

I don’t know how it is with kids but if they eat better at home, they may not eat snacks every time they can when not at home. Sure, they get curious and exotic things are tempting but it’s stronger occasionally, not all the time…? Of course, it matters how tempting the item is for the kid. I just extrapolate here (and read some stories from parents whose kids ate low-carb at home), I know how my own diet turned off my interest regarding certain carby things (and not so much regarding others). Having worse stuff occasionally may be something a kid can handle well. If their normal meals and home meals are okay-ish, that’s a huge thing already.
Sometimes I feel people want to make some woe very clean for various reasons like they think it must be done that way… I can understand it to some extent but not going all the way may help a lot too. I have this with carnivore. I don’t ever want to do it clean and I don’t think I need it. But it’s my default woe, my normal meals are usually carnivore and it’s very helpful.

#48

Correct. I am assuming the insulin response to protein is what prevents BG from rising when you eat protein and what might be making my BG actually fall. The insulin response to protein is actually pretty big if we put much stock in numbers like these:

When I consume fat alone my BG definitely doesn’t change - many days i just do coffee + HWC and sometimes MCT/coconut oil.

I have inferred that protein is raising my insulin whereas fats aren’t b/c of the BG numbers but also because ketones rise with the fat and fall or at least don’t improve if i just eat protein.

I need to try to understand glucagon better. I’ll watch the video. Adding yet another variable i can’t measure!

It could be actually “chewing” food might do something to insulin. My fat-rich protein/free mornings tend to be a result of coffee (i could try eating macadamia nuts or something)

(Bob M) #49

Anyone doing a longer fast? I’m trying for a 3.5 day fast, Monday night to Friday morning. I’m scheduled to give blood Saturday morning, so I want to end quite a bit before that (which takes more out of me than I think it will).

My wife is joining me, too. Almost 2 days so far.

Plan to restart 3.5-4.5 day fasts, every 3-6 months again.

#50

For me, as I know I’ve mentioned, I only do my self-imposed maximum of 5 days (120 hrs.) So I have always broken when I get to that limit, so can’t speak on any longer Fast. … But I also don’t like to plan Fast anymore, and stopped doing that a couple years ago. So now will just start a Fast and end after 2, 3, 4 or even 5 days. This way it doesn’t feel scheduled, if that makes sense. Plus, I see anything up to 24 hrs. or OMAD as an IF, and anything over 24 hrs. as EF. Though I do a lot of 30+ hrs. and usually say it’s an OMAD anyway.

But I do like to start most Fast after Sunday dinner, so if I do decide to go the 5 days, I will break Friday night. I like my weekends too much for making nice meals, trying out new recipes, etc. I’m gone at the minimum of 11+ hrs. a day with driving time, so my evening hours are limited somewhat. At least when making something that will take time, and I don’t like to eat past 6pm, so there’s that too. :slight_smile:

(Bob M) #51

I hear you about the weekends. I hit 5.5 days one time, until Saturday morning, but was dizzy when standing. Because of that and because I like to be with and eat with my family over the weekend, the max I do is 4.5 days, Sunday night to Friday before noon. I also have “troubles” the first day eating again, so I try to start eating early (don’t finish the fast at night).

Unlike you (and many others), I am never not hungry. If it’s my normal breakfast/lunch time (between 10 am and noon), I’m hungry. I have to force myself to fast even for OMAD.

That’s why I have an easier time if my kids have something to do after school and I can go pick them up at 7-8pm. I just stay at work the whole day, pick them up, go home, go to bed.

I hear about people who spontaneously “forget to eat” for a day or more…but I personally think they’re like unicorns or jackalopes…rumored to be true, but not seen in real life. :wink:

Though of course many will disagree with me. I just am not like that – at all. And the more muscle mass I (re)gain, the less I am like that. For instance, I don’t work out while fasting multiple days now. I used to do so, but I just can’t.

And if I do an intense body weight lifting workout (takes slightly over an hour, many sets, each one to failure), I cannot fast the next day. I get too hungry. I have had to move my body weight workout to Monday, even to have a hope of a 36 hour or OMAD fast on Wednesday.

I personally think that anyone who can spontaneously fast should consider themselves very lucky.

#52

Yep, my Sunday night to Friday night does quite well, and since I too don’t like to break at work, it’s why I usually wait til Dinner at home. I honestly don’t really have issues too often when breaking a Fast, but there’s always that chance, so I don’t chance it and would rather be at home just in case. :crossed_fingers:

But I do consider myself lucky as to being able to Fast without much effort. Also, I actually start feeling sometimes like most of my meals in general are simply still based of timeframes of habit & hardly ever just feel ‘damn’ I’d like to have something to eat, or be seriously hungry. (I’ve mentioned this before too, but I kinda miss that feeling to a degree too. Just that slight desire to have a nice meal is the norm?

I also just realized we are still chatting in June’s IF/EF, so will run off to make a new one for this month. Tend to forget this at times…

(Doug) #53

Some of the best fasts, like the best parties, are spontaneous. :slightly_smiling_face:

#54

I concur, 100%. Scheduling a Fast to me now, is like setting up an appointment, and I don’t like having appointments if I can help it. :smile: … Link to the new IF/EF thread listing below…