I've been having a hard time the past couple of weeks


(Empress of the Unexpected) #28

Also very confusing advice for newbies.


(hottie turned hag) #29

Hear, hear! Could easily mess folk up, badly.


(Bunny) #30

Nothing objectionable or patently false as phrased (and will phrase it as such in future posts) about eating what you want occasionally, that’s real world reality, sometimes you have to eat what is available or sometimes you may want to just eat what you want, and do not forget you have a built-up enough of a health reserve to withstand a higher carb intake occasionally, the longer you are on a ketogenic diet.

People with thyroid conditions may have to carb up occasionally if they nose dive into 20 grams a day without thinking about slowly easing into it over a period of weeks or may not even know they have a thyroid condition and wonder why they are not burning body fat i.e. losing weight?


(hottie turned hag) #31

@atomicspacebunny yes that’s where individual variability factors in.
No absolutes in medicine. All is -should be- case by case.

It’s only the blanket-ness of your statement that is troublesome.


(Bunny) #32

Sometimes the body tells you that you need to eat some carbs (that does not mean eat junk food) and that is because of one little digestive enzyme in the saliva (amylase) that reboots the leptin, ghrelin axis to kick start the body into fat burning mode.

The salivary gland does not produce lipase or protease, it only produces the amylase enzyme along with vitamin K, meaning who ever created us or however we came into being intended us to digest carbohydrates but not high octane junk food and without carbohydrates you will not burn body fat if anything is wrong with your internal organs or metabolism.


(hottie turned hag) #33

Hm again…with that detail I am now curious and wondering.

Though a data geek and with a master’s in an (esoteric) med sci field and 27 years experience in my field, I did little research into how/why keto works, in truth I didn’t know it was called “keto” (though knew of the ketogenic diet used to treat epileptics as my work often involves pedi pts with seizure disorders but certainly made no connection between that and my “eat no carbs, eat lots o’meat” gig) until two of my kids informed me that the carb elimination diet I’d been doing for weeks was now a trendy “thing” and called by a cute name :neutral_face:

(I’m a recluse who uses no social media, watches no news and avoids all popculture like it was a scary contagion).

All that to say, I’ve done next to no research on it since as I kept/keep it very very simple to avoid triggering my obsessive disorder so perhaps there’s more merit to carb cycling than I am aware of?


#34

A good read:

The only viable interpretation of these data is that ketogenic diets markedly increase tissue sensitivity to T3, and thus serum T3 levels decline while the physiological response to T3 remains normal. In this scenario, both the thyroid and the liver have to do far less “work” to maintain a normal thyroid physiologic response. https://blog.virtahealth.com/does-your-thyroid-need-dietary-carbohydrates/


(Bunny) #35

You need insulin (insulin sensitivity) to make T3 and if not the gut microbiome will try to do it for you.

Increased tissue sensitivity is the interesting part which is probably part of the healing process on the ketogenic diet, T3 levels could be high because of receptor rejection blocked by estrogen molecules that get stuck inside the receptor on the thyroid gland because its shape resembles T3 which also effects the way the thyroid secretes its hormones.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

I don’t believe so. To me, the justifications for carb cycling and for “resistant” starch sound scarily like the sorts of justifications addicts come up with to continue using their favorite poison. For that reason alone, I avoid intentional carb cycling, and I suffer no obvious ill effects. In fact, the ill effects I experience always seem to be the result of eating carbohydrate, not of abstaining from it.

I haven’t seen any convincing data that carbohydrate intake above 0 g/day is necessary. The body does need a certain amount of glucose, true, but the liver is perfectly capable of manufacturing the needed amount; carbohydrate is not necessary in the diet. Jeff Volek came out with a study recently that shows that athletes who have been fat-adapted for a sufficiently long time have glycogen levels comparable to those of sugar-adapted athletes. Granted, reaching this point after going keto takes some time, but I would suspect that carb-cycling would interfere with, not aid, the process. (I don’t believe Prof. Volek has studied that yet, but I’d certainly be interested in the results.)


#37

Just to clarify, I believe you’re looking at the FASTER study? That looked at muscle glycogen, which was replenished well, but not at liver glycogen (no invasive liver tests). Depletion of liver glycogen is concurrent [that’s the word I was looking for] with the OAA shortage needed to create ketones. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #38

I don’t see liver glycogen as particularly relevant, in any case. The only issue I can see it affecting is glucose-replenishment speed, which I why I would suspect (interesting to find out if I’m right or not) that the liver maintains a certain store of glycogen as a cushion.

Evolutionarily speaking, however, it would appear that we evolved primarily for endurance, and that whatever limit there is on explosive performance persists because our ancestors had only a limited need for it. (In other words, a long chase followed by short-term explosive exertion at the kill.) If the race had regularly needed more explosive performance than that, surely we would have evolved to have it. Or died out, lol.


#39

Adapted athletes skew the traditional glycolitic zones tremendously, but yes at zone 5 levels there can be a glitch.

Interesting theory, but I’m not coming up with a way for it to keep ketone-killing substrate out of the TCA.


(hottie turned hag) #40

@PaulL so in short, unsupported by current data. However, likely to work well in some individuals, allowing for my oft-alluded to individual biochem idiosyncrasies.

Re: evolution’s effect on today’s homo sapiens, I fear we have so distorted its natural progress in the past 150 years, via the sheer rapidity of artificial influence (many many examples, hormonal birth control/fertility tx, maintaining those who would formerly have been unable to survive to reproductive age, maintaining those with formerly early lethal diseases/disorders, environmental changes of a drastic sort, etc), versus the prior X amount of time during which such degree of change/interference was unprecedented, that today’s humans are too far beyond the reach of its past influence.

#runonsentenceaward :trophy:


#41

Hey Kevin, don’t be so hard on yourself buddy! Remember, it’s a marathon not a sprint. I certainly don’t want to misadvise you because everyone’s different. But I will tell you that I hop in and out of ketosis every now and then just to spice things up. I also incorporate intermittent fasting along with the keto for a “turbo boost” of sorts that really helps keep the weight off. But bottom line–me–if I want pizza, I eat pizza but use it as a reward at the end of a keto productive week. I moved to Florida to lose weight and do the keto and have vlogged my journey on youtube in a lighthearted attempt to not take things too seriously. You will be fine brother, just stay the course and be patient. We have all experienced what you are going through. Cheers!


(traci simpson) #42

Keto is what I want. Why would people want to eat foods that got them into the predicament that they are in currently? The whole reason for KETO is to get healthy and eat a better diet is it not?


(Bunny) #43

It is temporary and let me re-emphasize ‘TEMPORARY,’ a blip, not a flat line, it is up to every individual to be self-disciplined about their quote “addiction.” If you lack-self control then that is a personal issue? That is exactly why people get frustrated and just quit keto because they do not look at the whole picture; thinking every little carb they eat is a flat line and going to destroy their ketogenic life style, and that kind of thinking belongs more in the realm of unfounded hysteria rather than a well formulated plan to be disciplined enough to follow though with your scheduled eating goals?

What is neat about the ketogenic diet is you build-up a health reserve; that is the additional benefit to being healthier? Eating sugar (carbs) gets burned up immediately rather than sitting around in the body turning into fat?

E.g. When you drink or eat high fructose corn syrup mixed with sucrose in most foods; you are really drinking or eating fat in reality! That 3 grams or more of sugar in that bacon you just bought is THEIR FOR A REASON; because it is scientifically formulated to keep you addicted to carbs on purpose, by design, by the manufacture and scientists to make $$$$, so how are you going to resist it, if you do not have a health reserve? MAYBE A WELL FORMULATED KETOGENIC LIFESTYLE?

I can now basically eat anything occasionally here and their and still remain in ketosis with exercise, fasting, caloric restriction (keto) etc. as Dr. Peter Attia describes below:

“…Since the first metabolic priority for ingested carbohydrate is glycogen replenishment, I can, in this setting, consume probably somewhere between 60 and 120 gm of carbohydrate following this ride and stay in ketosis. Why? Because those carbohydrates are prioritized to replenish my glycogen stores AND I am highly insulin sensitive. Note the AND in this last sentence. (The especially astute reader will realize some of this glycogen debt will be replenished by protein and glycerol, the latter of which is liberated by lipolysis – see post on fat flux for a primer). Clearly I didn’t consume this amount of carbohydrate on my daughter’s birthday, so why was I out of ketosis the next day? Because my glycogen debt was not high. Of course, I knew this and didn’t really care. But, if I know my wife wants to go out for sushi one night, and I know she’s going to make me eat a California roll, I can “rig it” such that I show up to dinner with a glycogen debt appropriate enough to enjoy them without significantly interfering with my liver’s BHB production. …” …More


(traci simpson) #45

Hysteria? NOPE


(Gerald Young) #46

Thanks for the link. That website is full of solid information. Cheers.


(Susan) #47

Hey! I think I will finally start an accountability thread, even if it’s only me who reads it. Getting started again has been harder than I thought; but have done so and lost about 6 pounds and clothing is starting to get loose. My cholesterol is coming back down and generally feel better. Tracking what I eat & drink is apparently a must for me — back to myfitnesspal for recording, it’s easy & don’t really mind doing it.


(MooBoom) #48

Good for you Sue! :raised_hands: