"It's too hard!" and "It's too much"


(Neil Roberts ) #1

Something has been chewing away at my thinking for a year or so now: My consultants response when I asked why Low Carb eating is not rolled out as standard advice to every diabetic (both types) was “it’s too hard – we can’t expect patients to change their diet this much”. Does this imply that it is “known” in the medical establishment that cutting out carbohydrates is the solution ? I am starting to think I might be some kind of conspiracy nut job, and I keep winding myself up over this.
Recently Gary Taubes wrote a book called “The case against Sugar”, this has opened up debate and controversy. In a Journal called Cato Unbound an essay by Dr Yoni Freedhoff criticises Taubes’ assertion that sugar is at fault for rising obesity and diabetes. Part of Freedhoff’s argument is that sugar reduction is “too much” because a diet without sugar: if embraced, may lead to calls for extremes of action that even if enacted, aren’t likely to be enjoyable enough to be sustainable for most. Enjoyable! What?! Is this a medical Doctor arguing that even if this diet change is the solution it shouldn’t be enacted because it’s not enjoyable. Surely that’s the patients choice? Not the Doctors; who does he think he is? Calm down Neil…
Gary Taubes’ response is of course brilliant and gets to the nub of things:
Dr. Freedhoff is concerned with the advice he should give his patients to maximize their health, which includes maximizing their happiness. I’m concerned with identifying the causes of the epidemics such that we know what has to be done to stop them. If sugar is the ultimate cause of obesity and diabetes, however, which is at least a viable hypothesis, then I can’t agree with Dr. Freedhoff that his advice to his obese and diabetic patients should not include making this fact abundantly clear.
This is why I often evoke cigarettes as a comparison. Because, based on solid evidence, we are confident that smoking causes lung cancer, we do not advise smokers to smoke in moderation or to worry that non-smoking will make them unhappy. (It certainly will, at least in the short run. I can personally vouch for that.) We don’t assume that if we tell them that cigarettes cause lung cancer, this will reduce the likelihood that they’ll quit, because changing their behaviour for their own good may be an unrealistic luxury for them. We give them the knowledge and we let them decide. We don’t say, “what’s the smallest amount needed to be happy?” as Dr. Freedhoff suggests about dietary indulgences. We counsel, as Dr. Freedhoff also does, “not smoking.”

Ahh, as usual Gary has hit the nail on the head: Its’ my body, its my health, in what universe is it ok for Dr Freedhoff or my consultant to say its;’ “too hard”, or “its too much” ? Are they hoarding health knowledge for themselves and their own loved ones? I don’t think that’s the case, but I do think science and discussion cannot be held back because its unpalatable to the public.
Within a day of reading Gary Taubes response to Dr Freedhoff I attended a Diabetic Help Group run in an adjacent town. I went because I thought it may give some pointers regarding setting up a group in my own town.
An NHS dietician was giving a talk, it’s been nearly 2 years since the hospital told me to see one of their dieticians so I was eager to hear what the current advice was. It was well attended with approx. 25 diabetic sufferers (3 type 1’s the rest were type 2’s). Right off the bat the dietician started talking about carbohydrate reduction as the solution. She asked if anyone in the room was restricting carbs rather than calories, myself and 2 others put our hands up (the other two were type 2’s with dramatically reduced blood sugars). As she proceeded to talk about low GI foods and restricting carbs I could see jaws were dropping around the room. These were patients told to” base meals and snacks around starchy foods and healthy whole grain carbohydrates”.
She had some great questions for us :
Fruit? Spikes up blood sugar one of the other low carbers said.
Picture of a jacket potato on the screen… What about eating one of these… “It’s candyfloss” I answered.
Whats faster to act on your blood sugar… Wholemeal bread or a mars bar? “The Bread!” The room was shocked at this one.
It went on like this for a while, excess insulin wasn’t discussed as the problem for diabetes, the dietician said diabetes stems from obesity – I don’t think that is correct, but hey, the advice was the best I had heard so far from anyone in the NHS.
Toward the end I asked her a question :
“During all your treatments of diabetics, have you ever had any patient improve their blood sugar through any kind of treatment NOT involving carbohydrate restriction”…. A long pause. “No”… “except bariatric surgery patients”. I didn’t say anything (I was too slow), but bariatric patients are of course restricted in everything, including carbs.
Afterwards I explained that 2 of us are looking to set up our own self help group and would she come along and talk at it – she agreed.
Ref https://www.cato-unbound.org/2017/01/13/yoni-freedhoff/unintended-consequences-special-interests-sugar-view-clinical-trenches


(Cathy Schroder) #2

I think that the UK seems to be more open and aware of carbohydrate restriction. My experience in Australia is that most medical professionals have a lot more to learn. There are exceptions of course and fortunately my GP is one of them. I’ve given up on the ‘diabetic educators’ though.


(Richard Morris) #3

I haven’t given up on my certified Diabetic educator that my GP is required to have me see every 6 months. My CDE is a type 2 diabetic herself. So every 6 months she gets a well researched explanation of the root cause of her problem and how to fix it.

Sadly the last time I saw her she had finally become unable to keep her glucose low without injecting insulin. I was her first appointment after lunch. She proudly told me that she had some low fat tuna, followed by a pear and a tub of low fat fruit yogurt. I’ll keep trying to help her.

I suspect she thinks she will one day get through to me, although she can’t explain how stable my glucose remains on such a high fat diet. She did suggest my HbA1c at 5.2% was too low, and I was at risk of hypoglycemia so I should try to get it up to 6% if I could.

I expect one day I will be required to sign a liability waiver to indicate I had been so advised.


(Jennie) #4

Yes! Excellent write up.

I am starting to consider those who FIGHT (research, study, publish, share, etc.) for the keto way of eating HEROIC.

The UN notices the problem. That’s how worldwide we’re talkin’.


(Gabor Erdosi) #5

In the first place, the diseases of civilization should be prevented and not treated. The only quick and very efficient treatment is gastric bypass, and that one cannot be fully mimicked by diet and other liefestlye interventions.


(Ross Daniel) #6

Way to go Richard. I have similar conversations with people occasionally, and I never force the issue I just offer suggestions. Generally they are overweight nurses wanting to lose weight and they ask how I’ve lost mine. I tell them, then they try to educate me on how it is terrible I don’t eat any carbs. If they aren’t open to it, that’s OK, I make sure I make myself available for advice should they ever need it and I leave it at that.

At work we have an intern that is fit and works out. He decided that he wanted his abs back for spring break which is coming up. I smelled something cooking in the kitchen and asked what he was having for lunch. Chicken breast and rice (a lot of rice). I just joked with him and asked if he had put any butter on the chicken breast. He told me that he can’t eat fat, he is on a cut. All I did was tell him to look up ketogains on reddit. He wasn’t interested, his cut was working, he could see results. Well, he is also only 21, so it hasn’t caught up with him yet. I left it at that. I know his dad, and his dad was like him when he was younger. Soccer player, fit and lean. Now his dad has a good sized pot belly, and is well on his way to T2D if he doesn’t make a change.


#7

Dr Yoni Freedhoff is an idiot. He has caused much damage in Canada spewing his anti-keto, anti-low carb BS. He’s also gone as far as eating a plate of pasta during a TV interview, advising Canadians to “eat in moderation”. As in “you are fat because you don’t eat in moderation”. He is a CICO proponent and very dangerous opponent to Canadian luminaries, like Dr Jay Wortman and Dr Fung. That’s why he attacks others like Gary Taubes.


(eat more) #8

sadly i have a family friend that is insulin dependent T2D and is now experiencing diabetic nerve pain and says “nothing can be done about it” and isn’t open to even lowering her carb intake because “my doctor said”…i think something like 30g/carb per meal and doesn’t matter where that comes from.
she has white bread toast every morning cuz she “has” to and it’s what she’s always done…generational mindset that you do what your doctor says and has “permission” to NOT change.

i want to scream that there IS something to do about it but she’s not open to it because it isn’t what her doctor said :frowning:


(Richard Morris) #9

We’re trying to start this grassroots revolution but it’s not happening fast enough to help some people - sorry


(Stickin' with mammoth) #10

You people are wasting all your time and brainpower focusing on facts, logic, and human compassion. I hate to say it but follow the money, folks.

Ask yourself one thing: Whose massive bank statements would it hurt if the general population found out they could regulate their health on their own? How many lobbyists, legislators, surreptitiously funded scientists, and “thought leader” doctors can be tracked like a canceled check back to those entities?

It’s like speaking Latin to Norsemen; we’re talking about health and they’re talking about the bottom line. You’ll only really have their attention when enough people just go ahead and get better on keto to the point that corporate wallets begin to shrink like the general public’s waistlines.

(puts away soapbox and paces angrily around the room for 15 minutes, then eats a fat bomb)


(Neil Roberts ) #11

We need to keep chipping away. Momentum feels like it is building. Our local Patient Participation Group is supporting us with setting up a Diabetes Self Help group. We plan to try to base it upon Low Carbing - so, although not necessarily ketosis, hopefully some improvements will be seen and fed back to the Surgery.
I will definitely be directing other people to these forums… Paying it Back :slight_smile:


(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #12

<Sadly the last time I saw her she had finally become unable to keep her glucose low without injecting insulin. I was her first appointment after lunch. She proudly told me that she had some low fat tuna, followed by a pear and a tub of low fat fruit yogurt. I’ll keep trying to help her.

I suspect she thinks she will one day get through to me, although she can’t explain how stable my glucose remains on such a high fat diet. She did suggest my HbA1c at 5.2% was too low, and I was at risk of hypoglycemia so I should try to get it up to 6% if I could.

I expect one day I will be required to sign a liability waiver to indicate I had been so advised.>

This would be really funny if it wasn’t so true. Doesn’t she know that people can have HBA1c numbers in the 4.x range and be perfectly healthy, not in danger of a comma???


(David) #13

I suspect she’s posting on some forum somewhere about some stubborn bastard that she hopes to get through to soon. :wink:


(David) #14

There was an astonishing bit in “The Widowmaker” where the doctor being interviewed said that the researchers at the Mayo clinic were recommending making CAC scans available to patients to see who really needed angiograms, and stent surgery. But, as 25% of the income was through the Catheterisation Clinic the administration said no.


(David) #15

That’s the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result.

You could try to tell a story about someone who is close-minded and stubborn, and then change the subject, and ask her if she is open-minded enough to try an experiment on herself for a month and see what happens.

Some people put far too much trust in Doctors, while I’m not advocating arguing with them over everything, I do think that we should come away and very the facts of the things they tell us. I’m planning on recording my blood test review on Friday, and verifying the ‘facts’ that she tells me, and then going back with the science to continue the discussion instead of just swallowing what (possibly) out-dated advice she gives me.


(Cathy Schroder) #16

You are a better man than me (and not just because I am a woman)!


(Rita McGuire) #17

Death is not enjoyable either, neither is amputation.


(eat more) #18

i shared a link with her from dietdoctor about T2D reversal and she took it like i was calling her an eff up and said “my problem is ppl pushing food that is bad for me and not taking no for an answer…i screw up enough on my own” …like ppl are literally forcing her to eat?

she also said it wasn’t “new information…i eat low carb…15-60g per meal per my doctor” le sigh


(David) #19

It just baffles me how many people just have a knee-jerk reaction and argue back against what you are saying without even considering what you are saying might JUST be useful, or true.

I can empathise with your wanting to help her, for the last few days I’ve been thinking of all the people that I can think of that might benefit from this WoE. I’m just going to KCKO and hope that the people I think might benefit notice something is happening with me and get curious.


(Arlene) #20

Change is slow, and life is a process. Lead by example, speaking wisdom when and where it may be received. Those who chose to receive it will. Others may receive it later, once it has time to process with their life experiences, confirming the validity of your input.