Is the “too much protein turns to sugar” a myth?


(Marty Kendall) #183

Protein is hard to overeat due to the strong satiety effect.

Conversely trying to minimise protein may lead to decreased satiety.

If your goal is fat loss then you want the highest satiety diet that will provide ketones from burning your body fat.

The numbers and units can be confusing, but most people are recommending about the same amount.


(So much bacon . . . so little time . . .) #184

That’s not what I understand him to be saying around 18:00, where he’s talking about people, not dogs:

In fact, to understand his point, you should probably start watching around 17:00.

One of his points is that, even in circumstances when increased protein doesn’t affect the insulin/glucagon ratio, it’s because glucagon is increasing more rapidly to compensate for the the increase in insulin, so as to maintain the ratio.


(Ilana Rose) #185

That was my point. On a ketogenic diet when 1 g/kg is fed insulin does rise but it is matched by an equal response in glucagon so that the ratio is maintained. It’s incorrect to say that insulin is barely affected by the added protein though. It’s the ratio that is barely affected. Further, nothing Bikman has said in that talk can go beyond his evidence with respect to 1 g/kg. We do not know, and he certainly doesn’t suggest, that the insulin to glucagon ratio wouldn’t be changed by larger amounts of protein.


(Omar) #186

Exactly

:+1:


#187

Been speed reading this thread so I’m sure I’ve not absorbed everything but I have a question (hopefully not stupid). If we eat too much protein (more than we need) is it possible we just excrete the excess?


(Chris - Mince meat, not words.) #188

So long as you have healthy kidneys, usually.


#189

I checked my ketones and BG at 4pm, then had way too many pork skins. I checked again at 830pm, 4 hours after the pork skins. BG had risen only 3 points, but ketones dropped from 4 to no trace. Checked again at 2330pm, and BG had risen 20 more points., still no trace of ketones. FBG this morning had risen another 16 points, no ketones. All I can figure is the deranged and diabetes compromised metabolism converted the protein to glucose and sent my BG soaring.


(Chris - Mince meat, not words.) #190

Yes, IMO it’s only a myth if not still deranged metabolically.


(Bob M) #191

Jimmy Moore had a test done where he ate high protein then had insulin withdrawn. He had a pretty high spike in insulin levels. But they think he has a glucagon problem (he may be more more glucagon resistant than insulin resistant).


(Bob M) #192

Jimmy Moore also had hypoglycemia after eating high protein. That’s probably due to glucagon not counteracting the effect of insulin.

I could easily see someone else having the opposite effect, high blood glucose.

For me, I’ve tested many 120+ gram and one 150+ gram protein meals and did not have any ill effects I could determine, except too much protein and not enough fat gives me a sick feeling. That 150+ gram meal, I was not hungry, but I did not feel good after a while. The 120 gram isn’t bad though.


(Chris - Mince meat, not words.) #193

Jimmy is not a very healthy person.


(Justin Jordan) #194

Protein levels do affect my blood sugar consistently. It’s not acute - as in, eating 8oz of meat versus 4oz won’t make any difference two hours later, or four or six. But it WILL make a difference the next day to my fasting blood sugar, with a rise that sticks - if I wake up with BS 20 points higher, then all my reading will be up the same amount for a day or so.

With experimentation, I’ve found that there’s upper and lower bounds. Dropping my protein to (briefly) zero doesn’t lower it beyond a certain point, and really, really overeating protein doesn’t raise my blood sugar beyond a certain (fairly low) point - eating a lot of protein will raise my FBS 20 or 30 points.

As opposed to carbs, which can raise it, you know, hundreds.

I’m type 2 diabetic, and as such, very insulin resistant. My working theory is that while gluconeogensis is demand driven, insulin resistance can affect that demand. But it could be something entirely different going on.


#195

I was thinking more about poo. Does some of the protein and or fat for that matter not get digested when consumed in quantities more than we need.


(Chris - Mince meat, not words.) #196

Not incredibly certain on the protein aspect, but we will poo out extra fat.


(So much bacon . . . so little time . . .) #197

Proteins get broken down into their constituent amino acids before being absorbed into the bloodstream, where they join the pool of free amino acids before use. The body is constantly breaking down amino acids into ammonia and other byproducts. This breakdown typically takes place in the mitchondria, which package the toxic ammonia into urea, which is eventually excreted by the kidneys as uric acid. There is a certain obligatory level of deamination of amino acids, and part of our daily protein requirement is used to make up for this constant excretion of nitrogen.

The use of the breakdown products of amino acids appears to be quite complex. Much of the amino acids we ingest, of course, is used to build new proteins. The amino acids that get broken down are used in various ways, some to fuel gluconeogenesis (which we know is demand-driven, not supply-driven), some in the citric acid cycle and the production of ATP, some as ketone bodies which also get further metabolized and put into the Krebs cycle, and so forth. Nick Mailer did an excellent summary of some of these mechanism, which are controlled by the levels of various substances, such as citrate, oxaloacetate, and so forth.

If you want to know more, please consult the following chapter, from Biochemistry, 5th ed. I did my best to absorb as much as I could before my eyes glazed over, but there is much more to be gleaned: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22475/


(Janelle) #198

Who is this Jimmy Moore dude and why is everyone always talking about him? Seems like he’s a keto YouTube star (like a flunky Kardashian)?


(Bob Johnson) #199

I realized I’ve come late to this party. But I need to mention this. Just because a well renowned Dr says, “ ‘n’ amount of protein is ok, and as much as ‘n’ more is also just fine” doesn’t mean he is right. It needs to be backed up with science and peer reviewed studies.

My $.02 on too much protein. Just eating protein, even moderate amounts, the “keto” amounts, causes a rise in insulin (as does fat, but fats insulin spike is extremely low. Low enough that it doesn’t matter) high enough that it can have an effect. [here I am being hypocritical. I don’t have anything to back this up, so consider it as my opinion] .

My thinking is this… if you eat more protein than your body needs, one of two things (maybe three) is going to happen. Either it gets stored as fat, or it goes out as waste. The third option, which I doubt, is storage as protein. But I’ve never heard of that, so I doubt it happens. I could be wrong.

So waste is simple. It just leaves the body, no harm no fowl (unless it’s causing damage to the kidneys by causing them to be over taxed filtering it all out. Something about nitrogen iirc).

But to get stored as fat, it needs to be converted to sugar first doesn’t it? Bypassing or maybe activating gluconeogenesis?

I’ll continue my leisurely read through this thread. Maybe I’ll see the answer and feel a bit sheepish for speaking up :cowboy_hat_face:


(Bob Johnson) #200

Lol… I wasn’t going to mention it. I’m often typing on my iPhone and auto correct will often give me words I’ve never heard of before. Completely changing the entire meaning.


(Wendy) #201

Right?!
I think most of us have had that happen more than once.


(Janelle) #202

By the way, I was kind of kidding but every time someone talks about Jimmy Moore’s experience or what he says, someone chimes in with, “Well he’s not in the best of health” or “He has his own issues.”