Is Ketosis really the switch we think it is?

(Mike W.) #1

Is it really so simple and quick when we get kicked out, it’s like flicking a (24 hour) switch to get back in? Also is there any harm done or stress to the body from constantly flipping the switch? Is there more to it than just turning off fat burning for a short period? If you’re body isn’t producing ketones during that time where does it get its energy from?

(GINA ) #3

According to some (like Mark Sisson) the goal is to be able to easily transition back and forth from fat burning to not. I think that makes evolutionary sense.

#4

It’s probably not a great idea to have major carb binges on a regular basis while on keto, but it’s important to understand that just because ketone levels drop (or don’t register at all) doesn’t mean you’re not still burning fat or don’t have a fat-based metabolism. You can still be fat-adapted even if you’re not producing elevated ketones. So in answer to your question, the body can still be getting energy from fatty acids if you don’t see high ketones. (But it will use the glucose/glycogen first.) I wrote a blog post about this and just did a video on it, but I haven’t read the rules here in a while and don’t know if I can post links, so I’ll hold off on that.

(Mike W.) #5

Could you Message me a link privately? I would like to see that. Thank you

(Carl Keller) #6

From what I’ve read, ketosis is a human adaptation to provide fuel for the body in times when food is not readily available. Hunter-gatherers, 10’s of thousands of years ago, didn’t always eat regularly. They might feast today and have very little for the next several days, so ketosis was the natural reaction of the body. So yes, I believe ketosis is a switch that can be activated, willingly or unwillingly, when the body feels it is necessary.

The following study was conducted on modern day hunter-gatherers.

_ In 2011, Ströhle and Hahn (4) looked at the ratio of plants-to-animals in the diets of 229 hunter-gatherer and horticulturalist groups. They combined these observations with measurements of food composition from Australian Aboriginals diets. This enabled them to infer the carbohydrate content of a particular group’s diet. Tables 3 and 4 below contain their data see please dive into it. I summarize their major findings as follows:

  • A lower-carbohydrate, higher-fat diet is the most common sort of diet . Specifically, 16%-22% dietary carbohydrate is the most frequent (median and mode) macronutrient apportioning for 32.8% of groups. The 2nd most frequent is 29%-34% dietary carbohydrate for 27.9% of groups.
  • Where hunter-gatherer groups are located geographically strongly correlates with how much dietary carbohydrate they consume . Specifically, latitude intervals strongly correlate, although not linearly, with the percentage of carbohydrate in the diet. 11° to 40° North or South of the equator, dietary carbohydrate accounts for 30%-35% of calories on average whilst a sharp decrease to 20%-9% occurs from 41° to 60° above or below the equator.
  • Nearly 9 out of 10 of the diets of hunter-gatherer groups had less than a third of calories coming from carbohydrates . Specifically, “ most hunter-gatherer diets (approximately 85%) were characterized by a relatively low carbohydrate intake (<35% of the total energy), which reflected the high reliance on animal-based foods of most hunter-gatherer societies ”
  • In the last quarter of our evolutionary timeline we started living higher up on the globe and thus had to switch to an even lower-carbohydrate diet . I am choosing the timeline of anatomically modern humans arising approximately 200,000 years ago. So specifically, “ the switch to a low-carb diet (<25% of the total energy) seems to have taken place late in human evolution (ie, between 46 000 and 7 000 years ago) when our ancestors settled in higher latitude environments ”.
  • The authors made the assumption that “ gathered food included only plant foods ” which significantly overestimates the amount of carbohydrates in the diet given that non-plant foods includes “ the collection of small fauna (eg, invertebrates, insects, and eggs) ”._

My guess is from the carbs that you increased which kicked you out of ketosis… but not very efficiently. This is probably whey people feel like [spoiler]shit[/spoiler] after they’ve eaten high carbs while in ketosis.

(Carl Keller) #7

Yes, please post. I’m very interested to see/read your blog/video.

(Omar) #8

the kicking out of ketosis because of higher carbs can be recovered back to ketosis very quickly.

but the kicking out of ketosis due to stress, lack of sleep, or hormonal imbalance is difficult. I have to get rid of the stressors before I can go back into ketosis.

stress hormon is really the criminal.

I also was clear in my case that coffee is activating the stress hormon.

#9

Am I allowed to post links to my own stuff? Don’t want to run afoul of the rules or get kicked off the forum.
I’ll post them, but mods, please delete if this is not allowed.

Blog post on measuring ketones (and why/how) you can be fat-adapted even if you don’t have elevated ketones: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/09/measuring-ketones.html

Video on the same subject: https://youtu.be/aziowteZw8k

(Carl Keller) #10

Honestly, I’ve seen no rules about posting blog links and videos. Some people actually have their own blog threads (accountability threads) in the forum and I don’t see the harm.

(Omar) #11

there were quite few threads about this in the past they were not removed.

(Ken) #12

The issue is not Ketosis. It is the overall concept of Lipolysis that is important to understand. Ketosis is only a secondary energy pathway of Lipolysis.

Defining low or unmeasurable levels of ketones as being “kicked out of Ketosis” is unscientific “Nutty Keto Dogma”. It does not mean you’re no longer in Lipolysis.

(Omar) #13
(Carl Keller) #14

I liked your video, Amy. You’re very well informed, very well spoken and a passionate speaker. Thanks for sharing. :slight_smile:

(less is more, more or less) #15

Wait, THE Amy Berger? This is fantastic!

(Bob M) #16

This really isn’t that nutty. For some of us, we like to test to see if we’re in ketosis via blood (mainly). Otherwise, it’s easier to have carb creep and end up eating too many. Even if still are in lipolysis.

(Mike W.) #17

I agree. I also dont really understand why so many people are not more concerned with staying Keto even though they started this WOE to do more than just lose weight. Does being in Lipolysis help to fix metabolic derangement? Or just burn fat.

(Ken) #18

You guys are kinda missing my point. This WOE is Lipolytic Nutrition, in terms of Glucagon and Ketone secretions. Another way to describe it is VLCHF. Would you agree? The problem we have is calling it “Keto”. Not only is that a misnomer, it causes people to focus on ketosis rather than the overall concept of Lipolysis. Of course you’re ketogenic if you’re in Lipolysis. It also opens this WOE to massive detractions and distortions by those who try to refute ketosis instead of Lipolysis. Lipolysis, for those who understand it, is much easier to explain and therefore refute those who attack it.

(Adam Kirby) #19

I think you have it backwards. If you eat more carbs but are still in lipolysis, then congrats! You are still respecting your personal carb tolerance because you’re still in a fat-burning state. The problem comes from eating enough carbs where you are no longer in any kind of fat-burning state.

Whether you are lipolytic is the question that most people are REALLY after. What level of ketosis you’re in only matters for people who need high levels of ketones for neurological functions.

(Mike W.) #20

Are there similar advantages to being VLCHF above and beyond nutrition like there is actually being in Ketosis? Mental health, fixing metabolic derangement, increased energy?

#21

I feel that just like GNG, it’s a spectrum. We know we’re always burning some glucose, and that sugar burners can also burn some fat without ketosis. The difference is in what percentages. A couple years back in, I’ve hit the “metabolic flexibility” part where If I eat a higher carb meal, there is no more physical reaction. So if we stick with the story of trusting what our bodies tell us… and I can eat an actual burger and fries with no noticeable issues, no weight gain, no headaches and everything just runs 100% normal, I guess my body is telling me that I didn’t piss it off! Even a year ago that would have made me feel like crap, lots of bathroom time, waking up in sweats, sore joints for a couple days, but 100lbs down, more muscle, and a (mostly) repaired metabolism seems to tolerate it. I eat very few cheat meals, but I refuse to be afraid of them. Once I do that I can’t say with a straight face to people that keto is NOT a diet!

With THAT said, I feel stuff like that or playing with that switch should be reserved for those of us doing this for the long haul, I know that me of a couple years ago would very easily enter a carb relapse if I went out and ate a normal carb-y meal. I think the key is making sure that you’ve healed your relationship with food first, if not your begging for a relapse.