Is Ketosis lack of carbs or lack of carbs plus fat

(Empress of the Unexpected) #1

If one does not meet their fat macros for the day does that prevent Ketosis? I have been thinking, apparently incorrectly, that the main driver of Ketosis is lack of carbs. But it is slowly dawning on me that if insufficient fat is eaten, that will knock you out of Ketosis as surely as eating carbs will. Is this correct!

(Allie) #2

It’s not a goal you have to meet, just make sure you’re satisfying your hunger.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #3

So it is the lack of carbs that causes Ketosis? It has nothing to do with fat intake?

#4

My two cents is that “It depends.” Lack of carbs gets you out of sugar burning mode. So your body needs another source of fuel and turns to fat. Either dietary fat, or, if you’re not eating enough dietary fat, body fat. But it’s the lack of enough carbs to fuel the body that makes it turn to dietary fat. Just eating dietary fat won’t do anything if you’re taking in enough carbs to fuel your body. Carbs are easier to burn.

And if you’re not taking in enough carbs or fat, muscle breakdown begins. If I’ve got it wrong, I’m sure someone will let me know lol.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #5

It’s the carbs. Too much protein can also kick you out.
Too little fat while lead to restricted calories which will slow metabolism and cause stalls, but it shouldn’t kick you out of ketosis.

(Roy D Rushing Jr ) #6

Well not eating at all will put you in ketosis, so I’m guessing it’s mostly the carbs.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #7

Great replies, thanks everyone.

(Diane) #8

My understanding is that the lack of carbs allows you to switch from burning carbs to burning fat for fuel. You need the fat (either dietary or body fat) to produce ketones. For example, my blood ketone levels go up with either fasting or when I eat bacon (or supplement with MCT oil, etc.).

In the absence of carbohydrates AND the absence of sufficient fat, the body will turn to protein (again either dietary or in the body) to supply your energy needs. If the body is forced to burn protein for energy, it’s an inefficient process and produces toxic substances that the body has to eliminate.

(Alec) #9

You need both low carbs and the presence of fat for the liver to make ketones. However, you don’t need to eat the fat, as the body will use some it already has if required.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #10

My understanding is that the body will burn its own fat after fat adaptation, but that you have to train it with dietary fat prior to adaptation. Many people have commented that their ketones rise after eating fat. I am not fat adapted so I need the extra dietary fat?

#11

I believe the answer is everybody already has some degree of fat adaptation, it’s a sliding scale and most of us are pretty low on that scale pre-keto. My guess is until the scale moves up, you’ll just be really hungry if you aren’t getting more dietary fuel of one sort or the other.

(Alec) #12

I agree with @Callisto, there is always some capability to burn fat. Think Mr Caveman, if he did not have the ability to burn fat when times got lean, his brain would have starved of glucose and he would die: not a great survival advantage required for humans to get to where we are. So, even though it is not efficient (yet), and I doubt you would want or enjoy fuelling your whole body with just bodyfat (called a fast), it would be quite possible, you would just feel rotten doing it.

Jason Fung has it right, the body is very very smart. It needed to be for us humans to have got to where we currently are. The animals whose bodies were not so smart have died out a long time ago.

Also, don’t forget that there is a big difference between being fat adapted and making ketones. Ketones are made only in the liver in the process of burning fat to make glucose for the brain and a few other organs that can’t burn fat directly. All your other organs just burn fat directly and don’t make ketones.
Cheers
Alec

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #13

Quick side question, when people say they are having a fat fast, do they just mean they are using their own body fat during a fasting period or they are actually consuming dietary fat only on their fast?

(Chris W) #14

They are consuming only fat, in limited quantities. All definitions of “x” fast are pretty loose and I stay away from those arguments. Some one will say that if you have anything during a fast you are breaking it, others will have small amounts of bone broth, and some small amounts protein even.

(Chris W) #15

The real driving factor is not carbs as much as it insulin, but you will effect it directly by ingesting carbs esp high GI carbs like starches and sugars. Other things effect insulin like protein intake(directly), stress, lack of sleep, time of day, and or protein indirectly via GNG. Insufficient fat intake for a long time may I suppose knock you out but I would think that is either because of higher protein intake or starvation. Also the body will use fat for ketosis but one of the byproducts of breaking down the fat is glycerin which the liver can make into glucose via GNG, so having too much fat will also lead to lower ketones if the conditions are right. Ideally and typically this is not the case, but it is possible.

The amount of fat a body burns is will depend upon a number of things but I would say mainly the amount of output being done as whole, things like body heat, muscle support, and digestion are just to name a few. A body can be trained to burn more fat by beige(ing) your white adipose tissue, and increasing the mitochondrial effect of your brown fat cells. Muscle cells can be added which require more energy per pound.

Fat adaption is allowing most cells to directly take fat in and use it to make energy. The only real big difference between being fat adapted and keto adapted is that you are no longer relying on your liver for all of your energy.
The type of fat you ingest will also play greatly into what happens to it, SCT’s(butter) and MCT’s(coconut oil) will pass directly through the gut wall and straight to the liver which most often turns them directly to energy/ketones. LCT’s (animal fat) needs to be digested with bile and takes the long route to the liver where it gets repacked and sent out as numerous things like cholesterol, sent to the fat cells, or turned into energy/ketones. The cells can use all them I believe but mostly uses the LCT’s as that is what your body is storing as fat and releasing via lipoloysis (mobilizing fat from from storage).

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #16

Benjamin Bikman:

Control Carbs, Prioritize Protein, Fill with Fat.

That order. Limit carbs. Eat your protein macro, round out calories with fat.

That is all

(Alec) #17

They would normally mean they would be eating fat during their “fast”. Everyone’s definition of a fast differs, and it really doesn’t matter that much. Whatever works for them or for you.

I don’t get hung up on definitions, there are no official definitions of fasting. Why? Because there is no money to be made with fasting, only money to be saved by the faster! Therefore there is no motivation to organise! Fasting is totally wild!! :scream::see_no_evil: awesome!