No problem. I bet whichever path you take, you will be successful.
Is it okay to exceed protein & calories?
KetoCancerMom
(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :))
#22
Youāll probably figure out limits with ātrial and error.ā I used to try to keep my protein around 40-50g. But recently Iāve started to just eat what I feel I have the need for. Youāll get the hang of it 
SomeGuy
(Joey)
#23
@PaulL Thanks for adding this color to the mix. I acknowledge that whether an individual is eating high-carb as opposed to low-carb can often make a big difference in metabolic outcomes.
But at the risk of giving Dr Fung too much airtime here, Iāll go on to quote his website again, in which eating low-carb is the relevant context pretty much throughout. This passage is addressing what happens when someone in ketosis eats too much proteinā¦
ā quote ā
"[B]ecause excess protein is converted to glucose, it can stop ketosis and weight loss efforts. So here, carbohydrates and excess [<< emphasis in the original] protein are treated similarly, where fat is distinct. This reflects a far more physiologically accurate picture of metabolismā¦
āSo, if you eat a low carb meal, but eat high protein (protein bars, protein shakes, whey powder etc), then your body will still be burning glucose as it ramps up gluconeogenesis to convert that excess protein to glucose. You are stuck in the āBurn Glucoseā fuel system. So you donāt burn fat .ā [<< emphasis in original]
ā end quote ā
Source: https://idmprogram.com/dietary-fat-hyperinsulinemia/
Fungās team seems pretty fixed on the idea that overdoing protein while eating low-carb will: (1) knock you out of ketosis, and; (2) undermine effective weight loss efforts. I think this is also relevant in response to @ctviggen above.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#24
I believe that video of Dr. Fungās was recorded before the work of Prof. Benjamin Bikman and his team was published.
ava_ad0re
(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja )
#25
Can I please ask why you are so resistant on increasing your calories?
Keeping the same amount of calories but switching to 2MAD without being fat adapted is going to yeild the same results that I explained in my last post > REDUCED BMR!!!
Do you really want your body to get so used to only eating 1300 calories a day that any day you go over 1300 you are going to put on weight? Because your metabolic rate has lowered so much? Im really not understandingā¦
Is your dietician giving you SAD advice, and thatās why they feel this calorie amount is okay? Because it really isnāt.
Cora007
(Cora)
#26
Well actually it is okay because Ive looked at several different sites as well as entered my stats in different weight managers AND spoke with a dietitian which all say, it is what I should be having in order to lose. Whatās with attitude? I only asked for opinions not to the keto police to be involved. 
Chill outā¦ geeze.
Ilana_Rose
(mole person)
#27
There has been no published work and the data that heās drawing on in this talk is not from any work that was done in his lab but rather from several different papers from the 1970ās which he fails to reference in this talk. I only sorted this out from listening to podcasts where he is interviewed. Further, Iāve tried digging up the papers myself and while some of the numbers did match a lot of the more impressive ones did not. Until he turns up his data set I have serious concerns about the results presented in this presentation.
We also have to remember that Bikman is a scientist not a clinician. In this presentation heās not demonstrating anything about the effects of excess protein on metabolic condition. The data that heās drawing on only examines a single protein bolus of 1 gram/kg of body weight. This isnāt a high amount of protein. This is the middle range of the recommended amounts of protein that most keto doctors who say that protein needs to be moderate recommend. So how is this supposed to offer any evidence that significantly more is not going to effect our metabolisms negatively?
Real clinicians in the keto space regularly say that protein is something that requires watching. They see patients every day and notice things like HbA1c going in the wrong direction with overconsumption of protein on a keto diet. I find this much more convincing then an assumption that that doesnāt even follow from some data drawn from 1970ās papers.
Andy_Mole
(Andy Mole)
#28
In my experience its fine to have more protein than your Macros allow.
Iām eating 1-1.2g of Protein per pound of body weight whilst doing keto and keeping a regular 5 a day 7 workouts a week routine. Body fat is dropping whilst muscle mass is maintaining whilst still being in a calorie deficit, which is exactly what i want. I have a naturally muscular frame that i donāt want to lose.
Ilana_Rose
(mole person)
#29
@Andy_Mole There are definitely higher protein/calorie deficit style diets that work for weight loss. Ted Naiman recommends one and I definitely believe that it works. But itās not high protein AND high fat. And Iāve noticed this theme among the clinicians who are less concerned about proteins. They have a tendancy to discourage added dietary fats. They also tend to limit other things such as nuts and dairy to specific amounts. On some versions of the ketogenic diet itās not enough to just be within macros on these items.
There are lots of diets that can work for weight loss. Heck, vegans can get really skinny. A high carb/very low fat diet will also get you there. The main problem that I see is when we mix and match. I like to be in deep ketosis. I feel great when Iām there and all of my health issues disappear. I donāt have any trouble maintaining and growing new muscle tissue at even 50 grams of protein a day (though lately Iāve been closer to averaging 70 grams). But for me achieving deeper levels of ketosis and the good feelings associated with it requires a more moderate protein level.
However, I really think there is a lot of variance in how much protein people can tolerate while maintaining weight loss and metabolic health. I think that the protein advice levels given by clinicians are meant to help the most people possible with a simple instruction. Much like many people can be in some level of ketosis and enjoy weight loss at much higher carb levels the same is true of protein. But for many others itās simply not the case.
Iām curious. If you know them and donāt mind sharing, what are your actual macros like? Do you check for ketosis? If so what sort of values do you get generally?
SomeGuy
(Joey)
#31
@PaulL Thanks for bringing Bikman into the mix. I have heard him speak on this and related topics and respect his work. But I find @Ilana_Roseās reaction (above) to be compelling given the other available evidence and scientific support. Iāll certainly take another look at that clip in case I missed something, but Bikman doesnāt seem quite on point.
Thus far, evidence supporting the notion that it is indeed possible to āoverdoā proteins (even while on keto) seems more compelling than not. This concern also squares with what we see throughout the natural sciences with respect to āUā shaped curves ā¦ where neither a deficiency nor an excess of any single input is healthy.
The idea that thereās no point beyond which excess proteins wonāt produce adverse reactions seems naive. Of course, precisely where any one of us (n=1) might be along such a continuum at any point in time remains an unknown. And to be clear, I have full faith in your personal experiences with higher levels of protein.
What concerns me is offering it up as blanket advice - especially for those still wrapping their heads around the need to increase their saturated fat intake when transitioning to ketogenic eating. I donāt believe that āgoing longā on protein instead is a constructive solution for them - and, as we know, thereās only so much appetite to go around.
@Andy_Mole Sounds like youāve found an excellent zone for your metabolism in its current state. 
Assuming you really mean āpound of body weightā (not ākg of lean body massā) I still wouldnāt consider 1 to 1.2g of protein per pound of body weight to be excessive, although itās tipping toward the higher end of the spectrum (qualifying my comment with the assumption that you are not fairly obese. i.e., with a body weight that is materially higher than lean body mass).
But Iām curious as to just what you mean by your ācalorie deficitā comment? Just how severe a restriction on daily kcals are you talking about?
Thereās extensive clinical and RCTrial evidence that significant caloric deficiency will - over time - will force your metabolic rate downward. As such, I share the concern expressed by @ava_ad0re above on this point.
Once that happens, it then becomes an extremely difficult (and lengthy) process to reset it back higher again, during which time you will need to āoverfeedā - and will invariably gain weight beyond where you may have even started. BTW, thatās the āBiggest Loserā weight rebound phenomenon.
SomeGuy
(Joey)
#33
I think heās asking how youāre feeling these days?
[āHangryā = slang for āhungryā + āangryā ā¦ when someone doesnāt get enough nutrition, this is a common description for how they feel.]
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#34
Iāll give you mine. Going on 6 years low carb/keto. Have NEVER taken a macro, ever. I think they are useless.
Do I check for ketosis? No longer. I have over 2 THOUSAND samples of ketones (blood, breath, urine) plus various blood sugar tests. I have used five different blood sugar monitors, including two different CGMs, two blood ketone monitors. When I last left off testing ketones, they were rarely above 1.0 unless I fasted multiple days. In fact, I fasted 4.5 days, and got a whopping 1.9. After 4.5 DAYS of fasting. I gave up on them, because the errors in measurements were simply too great. I donāt use anything that is useless, and I found ketone and blood sugar to be useless (though I recommend EVERYONE try a CGM).
Your questions will yield useless answers. Who gives a carp what his ketones are? The values are meaningless.
Hereās a random example:
Left column after time is ketones via KetoMojo, next column is ketones by Precision Xtra, then breath ketones by Ketonix (first version), then data from my FreeStyle Libre US model, any pinprick blood sugar, and which meter I used.
Note that I ate 167 grams of protein IN ONE MEAL, and I was still in ketosis. (I did not record dinner, so I donāt know what I ate, which might also have affected ketosis. Note too that the carbs arenāt recorded for my āblunchā, and these would also affect ketosis.) Note also that the blood sugar rise in the morning is a combination of physiological insulin resistance and exercise.
So, asking questions like āwhat are your ketonesā is simply a way of āprovingā to yourself whatever it is youāre trying to prove. But I have thousands of blood sugar and ketone tests that will disprove that (and I donāt care what it is - think eating late at night causes your morning blood sugar to rise? Think again. Think āpopcornā causes high blood sugar? Think again. I could be here all day, which is why I stopped testing. Everything I tried to test did not work.)
Cora007
(Cora)
#35
Oh I know what it means but he was obviously being sarcasticā¦ heād have no reason to say that I was hangry, so I assume he didnāt like a response I made. Thanks tho haha
SomeGuy
(Joey)
#36
@ctviggen Awesome post.
Thanks for underscoring how all this data that one can gather can be of such limited use. By āuseā I mean being actionable.
This resonates with me personally, so if you donāt mind Iāll drone on a bit about itā¦
So much of the data I gather on myself (too much to admit publicly) is captured with the vague thought that it will help me better aim my lifeās efforts in one direction or another. To me, thatās a good working definition of what I mean by data thatās actionable.
Occasionally, the data gathered actually does serve this purpose by helping me refine my path forward (diet, exercise, time management, approach to learning, practicing music, aiming my volunteer efforts, etc.).
At other times (most commonly) the data simply confirms what I had already expected or suspected was the case. Initially, gathering ketone, glucose, menu and macro data served this purpose - while also tipping me off to confirm that straying from the course (e.g., accidentally eating restaurant food with undisclosed ingredients) was a bad call.
But now, after 3-4 months of diligent ketogenic eating (and anal data capture), the blood tests are becoming kind of pointless. If thatās where Iāve arrived in less than 4 months, I canāt imagine why Iād be bothering after 6 years - as someone like you, with your massive firsthand highly-personalized experience base.
Was it worthwhile to gather this data at first? Absolutely. It gave me confidence and confirmation ā¦ two things I desperately needed to know I was heading in the right direction. Some commercial labwork (NMR lipid bloodwork and a comprehensive metabolic panel) also provided timely mental/emotional support.
So, for others who are similarly inclined to gather data, donāt let me talk you out of it. But I would suggest this: Ask yourself ā¦ whatās the benefit vs whatās the harm?
If you donāt mind sticking your finger and paying for test strips on an open-ended basis? Then go for it!
ā¦ As long as you donāt get too worked up over every little bit of variability (and as noted, there will be LOTS of variability because test accuracy is far less than what the significant decimal points provided seem to suggest). You will likely confirm some basic things that others have widely reported, and enjoy the feeling that your body performs generally along similar lines of biochemistry. On the other handā¦
If youāre someone who gets overly concerned - compulsively so - about minuscule changes in (seemingly) precise (but often misleading) data meanderings, then ask yourself whether this emotional reaction is really worth it? Or, is it really a harm?
In short: Are you getting information thatās going to direct your toward a different action? If not, then no, itās not actionable data.
If - regardless of what the test results show - your response will still be to āketo onā no matter what, then thatās probably a hint that the benefit, if any, of gathering such data is fleeting.
Again, I admit that āI do love me my data.ā 
But eventually Iāve come around to asking myself whether the benefit of hoarding ever deeper piles of blood serum data outweighs the cost (energy, attention, financial cost, distraction, enjoyment, peace of mind, etcā¦)
So, thanks again @ctviggen for the post. It helped me clarify some thoughts Iād been grappling with in recent weeks.
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#37
Was a genuine questionā¦ as you are officially undertaking a āstarvationā regime then I was guessing your rather OTT reaction may have been because youāre hungryā¦
Cora007
(Cora)
#38
Iām not sure where you get your information from as itās clearly wrong but I assure you it is not a āstarvationā diet. I do not need petty and sarcastic remarks such as asking if Iām āhangryā. I am clearly not starving myself as Iāve spoken to many people who say I am not, including a professional. So if you think Iām starving myself its unfortunate because youāre misinformed.
ava_ad0re
(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja )
#39
We are giving you OUR opinion, and you are ignoring us, and we are all saying the same thing. You are being defensive and I canāt be arsed with you any further. Continue listening to your SAD Dietitian.