Is it okay to exceed protein & calories?

(Cora) #1

I am using carb manager to track my macros and would like to know if it is okay to exceed both protein and calories some days? I have read specifically that you could be possibly kicked from ketosis if you exceed protein. Interested in knowing how it works for different people. I am currently in ketosis and my macros are 20 carbs. 85 protein and 1373 calories/daily. I’ve spoken with a dietitian who said my macros are fine but I am uncertain if too much protein or too many calories will prevent weight loss. Thanks!

(Bob M) #2

You will NOT get kicked out of ketosis if you eat more protein. I’ve eaten 150, 200+ grams in a single meal of protein and still remained in ketosis.

(Joey) #3

@Cora007 Elaborating a bit on what @ctviggen said above, I’ll offer two answers…

(1) If you’re new to this keto thing, the short answer is “no worries” about exceeding protein. Sure, waaaay too much protein will get in the way of burning fat, but it’s more likely you’re going to lose interest in eating that much protein before you ever reach that point.

Also, proteins are best thought about (in terms of grams or calories) on a weekly average basis, not a daily hard limit or floor.

(2) If you’ve been at keto for a while, the equally short answer is “no worries.” Again, it’s really hard to overdo proteins in the long run - although technically possible - largely because you’ll lose your taste for another protein rich menu item when you’ve had enough.

In fact, some say that a good way to test whether you’re truly hungry or whether you’ve just got a craving to munch something is whether you’d be interested in eating a piece of steak? If so, yeah, you’re probably hungry. If not, no you’ve just got a craving (probably for a carb or sugar of some sort, which is why there’s no craving for meat at that moment).

As for calories: Don’t sweat that either … unless you’re not getting enough. Early on, it’s far more important to not skimp on the calories (i.e., healthy fats!) - which is what many folks (including myself) wind up doing in the early weeks until you realize your body really does need more energy than you’re eating.

While you’re adapting to burning fat, don’t let your metabolism shut down for lack of sufficient energy - in the form of fat.

(Cora) #4

Thanks so much for your comment! I just feel like having more some days is all and was unsure.

(Cora) #5

Thanks Joey, this definitely helps a lot. I am on 90-95 percent strict keto diet now for just over one month. I was doing OMAD but now doing two meals. I know I’ve lost a lot of weight so far as I can feel it but it’s hard some days and especially with the holidays coming. I just would like more protein and maybe calories sometimes. Again, thank you!

#6

It depends on who you ask around here, opinions vary especially on calories. I vote yes it’s ok on both counts. In fact, I don’t count calories at all and have long since tracking macros, since I have a good idea of what is ok to eat on keto now. I steadily lose weight and feel great.

(Cora) #7

Congratulations on feeling great, that is my goal! it makes me feel better that I can do it if need be as I feel guilty if I literally just go over 2 g protein or 100 cals. I am hard on myself, I know but I got myself in this situation and am trying to do my best to get myself out. Thanks so much for your advice, it means a lot!

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #8

What does this mean 90-95%? What makes up the other 5% to 10%. Not being strict keto (<20g carb / day) can reduce the benefits you see from the WOE.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

One of the effects of our dietary guidelines has been to teach us not to trust our bodies to get things right. Listening to your body is important; and a ketogenic diet makes our hormonal signals much more reliable. I find there are days when I want a lot more food and other days when I want a lot less. It all evens out over time.

As long as we keep our carbohydrate intake, and therefore our insulin level, low, our body can use our appetite to tell us how much we need to eat. When insulin is high, it blocks all those signals and keeps us in a permanent state of hunger.

(Joey) #10

@ctviggen Just a followup thought on your comment above …

My understanding is that it was established long ago that proteins will raise insulin levels even without raising blood glucose. A distinction worth noting.

This finding goes back over 40 yrs along with subsequent research confirmation. See attached: “Insulin Secretion in Response to Protein Ingestion” by Floyd, et al 1966 …

105455.1-20150304085209-covered-253bed37ca4c1ab43d105aefdf7b5536.pdf (1.2 MB)

To the extent we often use “being in ketosis” as a kind of short-hand for addressing many of the health issues we face, we should also appreciate that insulin is more often than not the real culprit.

If eating large quantities of protein produces sharply elevated (and unmeasured) levels of insulin, then continuing to feel satisfied by noting elevated BHB serum levels may be presenting a misleading combination.

Food for thought.

(Marianne) #11

I would encourage you to eat TMAD if you are hungry, or have a bulletproof coffee in the morning if you are doing OMAD. In the beginning you don’t want to skimp on meals, fat and/or calories. Your body is learning a new way and is working hard to convert to fat burning and undo years of damage from eating carbage. You need to fuel it sufficiently at this time and when you are feeling vulnerable, hungry or tempted. Don’t worry about the calories; just eat - and get enough fat. You don’t want your metabolism to slow because you aren’t feeding it enough. This won’t last forever and you will cut back when you are naturally ready.

Good luck.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #12

I certainly wouldn’t make such a blanket statement. Just because it is true for you, doesn’t mean that it will hold true for everyone. There are people here who will say they have a “protein sweet spot” and that things happen if they go over that personal protein range.

It also might depend on how much you go over.

(Joey) #13

I’m in agreement with @KetoCancerMom that - when it comes to protein - it’s certainly possible to eat too much of an otherwise good thing.

Here at https://idmprogram.com/dietary-fat-hyperinsulinemia/ Dr. Fung asserts the following:

"If you overeat dietary protein, according to the HOT [i.e., his Hormonal Obesity Theory], you can still develop obesity. This is the key insight behind the more recent LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat) movement rather than the pure Low Carb movement (Atkins and others) which do not restrict either fat or protein. … there’s a fundamental difference in dietary fat metabolism that differentiates it from both proteins and carbs. It has almost no insulin effect. Why not? Because it doesn’t use the liver for metabolism. Insulin is only necessary for burning glucose, not fat."

So, putting aside a discussion as to whether one “stays in ketosis,” that issue quickly becomes moot when excess dietary protein produces an insulin reaction - since the whole purpose of eating keto (transforming our metabolisms from glycolysis to ketogenesis) is to manage intraday insulin spikes. Since we can’t yet directly measure insulin with home blood kits, we rely on glucose and BHB measures as (weak) proxies for insulin activity.

The Fung narrative continues…

"…Since the protein does not raise blood glucose, even though it raises blood insulin, glucagon is also stimulated, as well as incretins that help mitigate this effect and prevent hypoglycemia. It is a surprise to some, that certain proteins stimulate insulin as much as the refined carbohydrates. Animal proteins have more insulin effect than plant proteins. Does this matter? Maybe. There is a higher risk of diabetes for increasing quartiles of animal protein. … Dietary fat, on the other hand is metabolized in a completely different manner than both carbs and proteins. "

Taking Fung’s position on this at face value [Disclosure: I don’t always take everything he says at 100% face value, e.g., when Fung and Phinney seem to differ on finer points of fasting], if we perpetuate the notion that protein doesn’t adversely affect one’s state of ketosis, this would be fairly misleading to those who seek out a ketogenic diet specifically to better manage their insulin levels (T2D, those seeking improved autophagy, etc.)

@ctviggen, I respect your considerable wealth of knowledge and years of personal experience with keto. But I do think it’s important to clarify: The idea of not worrying about ever higher levels of dietary protein is not helpful guidance, especially to folks who are new to this stuff (myself included!). Saying that proteins can’t kick you out of ketosis is a particularly troublesome message for those who still struggle to get their saturated fat up to levels where they ought to be for better health - and are likely to fall back on ever higher levels of protein to make up the shortfall after ditching the carbs.

Your thoughts on this would be most welcomed.

(Cora) #14

I eat 90-95 percent strict as I’ve said. Which consist of meats such as beef or chicken and whole foods like vegetables. The other 5-10 percent is processed such as, cheese, sausage, pickles ect… I try and eliminate what I can to keep it cleaner and healthier.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #15

Okay. That is good as far as I’m concerned. We eat sausage, cheese, salami… Pork Rinds. Just not carby anything. I wasn’t sure if your 5%-10% were carb cheats.

(Cora) #16

Thanks for your advice. I am on a learning rollercoaster with keto. I have not cheated yet and it’s been just over one month. I know it’s not long haha but I need to learn before I make mistakes as I want to succeed with this and have my mind made up with sticking to it. For me, it’s just nice to know that I can do this at times is need be.

(Cora) #17

It’s tough at times because meat and veg gets a tad boring after a while! Haha

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #18

The more nuanced current understanding is that context is important. In the context of a high-carbohydrate diet, extra protein has a significant effect on the insulin level, with no compensating effect on glucagon secretion, which thus raises the insulin/glucagon ratio significantly. In a low-carbohydrate context, however, while extra protein does stimulate insulin to some extent, it also stimulates glucagon secretion, with the net effect that the insulin/glucagon ration remains unchanged (and low).

It is the insulin/glucagon ratio that determines whether the body’s metabolic state is primarily anabolic or catabolic.

(Cora) #19

Thank you for your comment. That’s what I read before and I was unclear as to the answer but knowledge is everything so if need be I will go over but just keep it under control and not go crazy with it!

(Cora) #20

I think its best just to watch it and if I go over, don’t go too crazy with it. It’s won’t happen all the time as I am truly trying to stick to it but holidays are coming up which makes it a bit difficult. Thank you for your comment!