Is it about low glucose or insulin, or Pasta vs Steak?

(Keta) #1

Hey everybody, I have a theoretical question, would love to hear your views: Is ketosis aka fat-burning mode triggered by low glucose or by low insulin? I know both coincide often. But not always. Some people talk as if it is only about carbs/glucose, others that it is about insulin, which can be triggered by proteins too. So which model is right?

Model 1: Glucose - As long as there is glucose, the body burns glucose, no need to enter ketosis. If there is no glucose, it produces glucose via glucoseneogenesis, but that takes longer is more demand driven. When no glucose and no protein, ketosis starts.

Model 2: It is about insulin: Insulin prevents the body from entering keto-mode, because it signals to store fat rather than to use it. So insulin is the direct culprit. Therefore, one has to cut down on everything that produces insulin (carbs + other foods that cause a reaction).
Which one is right?

One may wonder why this should make a difference? For me it is hard to make the right food choices. Some foods seem to be low on carbs but high on insulin respone. So it might be wiser to not eat them and low GI carbs instead. Say: A steak or wholewheat pasta. The latter may, all things together, produce less of an insulin response (acc to insulin index).
Your views much appreciated!

(Karen) #2

Protein doesn’t matter that much when you are low car b. Not exactly your question but…

K

(Keta) #3

but thanks anyway!

(Jay AM) #4

All carbs (besides mostly fiber) are eventually turned into glucose. Low GI foods are generally slower to process but, they will eventually become glucose over time that requires processing by the body. The only reason they are low GI generally is because they don’t cause a high impact to blood glucose all at once. Their glucose impact is spread out over time. With a glucose fuel source, insulin remains active and we can’t turn to making ketones until insulin has finished dealing with the excess blood glucose. Low GI only measures the immediate potential blood sugar impact of a food. Then we have Glycemic load or GL. Glycemic load tries to estimate the impact of a food based on its carb quality and amount at the same time. I’ve left a link below that goes into more detail about the two.

But, neither of these account for Insulin Load of foods which tries to show how foods impact how much insulin is produced.

With ketosis, we want to maintain a lower insulin load so that our body can access our fat stores to be converted to ketones.

(TJ Borden) #5

It’s both. The general idea of keto is to limit insulin, and an insulin response. For those of us who are/we’re diabetic or pre-diabetic, we also had insulin resistance, which meant we were cranking out A LOT more insulin than we should have needed and for a longer response period.

Someone with a normal metabolism might have an insulin spike that lasts an hour. Someone with insulin resistance, that insulin spike would be more like a plateau that lasts six hours. Durning that extended time increased insulin, none of the energy consumed (that created the spike to begin with) is available for use because the the “storage switch” (insulin) is turned on.

By keeping the intake of carbs to a minimum, you limit that insulin response. As far as glycemic load, for someone with insulin resistance, I don’t think it makes much of a difference how “fast or slow” the carbs metabolize because that insulin storage switch is staying on anyway.

Prtotein does cause an insulin response, but only a fraction of what carbs trigger, and it may only really trigger for excess protein (still a lot of discussions going on with protein).

Fat shouldn’t cause an insulin response, but if your metabolism is deranged enough and you’re insulin resistance enough, then even fat can cause a response because your system is so used to cranking out insulin every time you eat.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

It’s the insulin level that is key. High serum glucose stimulates insulin production, which is why we cut carbs to the bone. But if you are among those people who can tolerate a high daily amount of carbohydrate without becoming insulin-resistant (there are some in the population), you don’t need to eat a ketogenic diet.

The insulin response from protein is nothing we can do anything about, because it is impossible to live without protein. We have to have it, whereas the minimum necessary amount of carbohydrate in the diet is 0 (zero) grams. (The body does need a certain minimum amount of glucose, so it makes it from protein as required; you don’t need to eat eat any carbohydrate.)

(mark whittaker) #7

I think both of your models are flawed. at least from what I think I understand about how this all works.

(Keta) #8

@donjonson: great, getting over my flaws is the aim - could you elaborate or provide me with a good link?

#9

Looks like insulin… check out Dr Jason Fung’s book and blogs on this… google him.