Is Hunger Friend or Foe?

(hottie turned hag) #1

Given my recent struggles with fasting beyond my usual eat once/24h gig that I’ve been doing for ages I’m thinking more about hunger and metabolic slowdown and the relationship between the two.

Am trying mental tricks to get back to being able to fast to 48h as I formerly did with ease -as recently as week before last- and one is to view hunger as a nifty manifestation of good things happening within :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

As I am p small (116lb last weigh but that was over a month ago so may be less; def not more as I am smaller) I am kind of afraid of hunger as I fear metabolic slowdown due to not having massive stores BUT I do have stores as in flab galore so what’re the wise heads’ opinions on that aspect of it all?

This q shall sound overly simple minded but I like hearing folks’ differing takes on things, it helps me: do you guys think hunger indicates metabolic function is nicely on point, as opposed to the decreased hunger we often get when fasting, which suggests metabolic processes are tapering down?

If not for my fear of metabolic slowdown I could willpower it through as that itself isn’t a hard thing for me to do.

I know I could do research and read scientific articles (my education/27 year career is in med sci) but my approach to keto (didn’t know it was a “thing”, even, when I started) has been simple as possible, no research, on purpose to avoid triggering my obsessive disorder, which is why I also count no cals/macros/ketones and only weigh weeks apart and own no scale.

The over the garden fence anecdotal stuff soothes my brain :slightly_smiling_face:

(Carl Keller) #2

I’ve noticed in myself and in others that the behavior of our hunger goes through many phases. Of course we are always hungry when we first start LCHF and then suddenly our hunger goes on vacation as our body learns how to burn fat for fuel. And then eventually, as our fat loss increases, hunger returns to try to put an end to what is sees as an endless spiral toward skin and bones.

I’m ok that my hormones won’t let me lose that last bit of belly fat I have. I’ve never had a better relationship with my hunger in my life. I may not be able to fast like I used to but I’ve come to terms with the idea that my hunger is simply protecting me. It’s my insurance against starvation and illness.

Women have a much more difficult time losing that last ten pounds. As the child bearing member of our species, their hormones will cling to that last bit of body fat like there’s no tomorrow. Dr. Ken Berry uses the example of how some women marathoners become so lean that they stop having their periods because their bodies deem reproduction to be unsafe. The way I see it, a little body fat is part of what makes a woman a healthy woman and their hormones would agree.

(hottie turned hag) #3

@CarlKeller my inference from your reply then is that perhaps at this size, biochem changes are occurring with the view to survival as goal. Gotcha.
Do you think metabolic slowdown is therefore a given and unavoidable if I force a longer fast?

I adore your posts by the way and am always excited to get a reply from you :sparkling_heart: They are so sensibly presented and on point.

(John) #4

Take a look at this blog post by Richard (one of the 2ketodudes):

(hottie turned hag) #5

@JohnH oh yes, I’ve seen that before as it was linked for me in another thread. Excellent and concise.

I’m still interested in hearing more about the hunger/met slowdown dyad.

(Carl Keller) #6

Ummm, in someone with not much body fat, I would proceed cautiously and definitely include some feasting days to let your body know that food in abundance is around. Occasional restriction of food is not a problem, but patterns of restriction are.

You might also consider carnivore and get your carbs down to next to nothing. I doubt this would risk your metabolism.

(hottie turned hag) #7

@CarlKeller obvi you aren’t as rabid a fan of my posts as I of yours :rofl: (don’t blame you a bit! #Kingvspeasant) as I’ve been posting about being “carnivore” (always in quotes to fend off terminology zealots) for around…2mo-ish, at the start of which appetite/hunger past hour 24 decreased, then increased of late!

(John) #8

I am not a scientist, but if the info in Richard’s post is accurate - if you don’t have enough body fat to generate the caloric output needed for your body’s energy expenditure, then something will have to give.

Either your body will have to slow down the metabolism to fit within the available energy input, or it will have to start breaking down other body components besides just stored fat. Along with that, I would think the body would send really urgent hunger signals to make the brain go hunt down a mastodon or something. It may do all three things at once.

Over the past weekend, I did a brief fast, which I cut short a bit sooner than I had hoped (44 hours vs. 60). I was going along fine, but decided to go for a relatively long (for me) walk of 3.5 miles, while fasted. When I got back from that and rested up a bit, my body REALLY wanted me to eat something. Feeling low energy, a little groggy. So I am thinking that I was pulling more “amps” than my fat battery could provide in that time window, and it said “Ok, fast is over, you need to eat now.” At my weight and the distance walked, I probably burned about 400 calories over BMR during that time window.

I’ve got maybe 55-60 pounds of body fat stores left, which can deliver perhaps 1800-1900 calories per day, which is close to my theoretical base metabolic rate for my age/height/current weight, but not enough to cover physical activity as well.

I probably could have pushed through, but I am not trying to set records. So I ate normally, and within a couple of hours was feeling fine again.

Without access to my own personal RMR home testing device, I have no idea if there was any metabolic slowdown occurring or not, or maybe I was just tired after doing a 3.5 mile walk in warm weather after not having walked in a few months.

But I was hungry, so I ate. Keto foods, in regular quantities. Full-sized meals the next day, too. Walked the next day, didn’t feel so tired afterwards.

Not trying to tell you what to do, just sharing my recent experience. It may not be applicable to your situation, but you did mention you wanted anecdotes.

(Carl Keller) #9

That’s so not fair! I actually enjoy reading what you have to say and especially love the misanthropist comment on your profile. :smiley: I’m guilty of trying to read every new thread at the sacrfice of keeping up with unread stuff. My free time tends to dwindle as the temperature rises. Coincidentally, you just made the temperature in my cheeks rise just now. :stuck_out_tongue:

You are definitely no peasant, my friend. :wink:

(hottie turned hag) #10

@CarlKeller * curtsies * my thanks, my liege :crown:

(hottie turned hag) #11

@JohnH yep I adore anecdotes :purple_heart:
Being antisocial and reclusive irl, online (only anonymous forums; I eschew all social media) is as I say above, my “over the garden fence” place to get some brain balm.
(that should so be a thing “Brain Balm, available with or without trocar”)

So…my fear of metabolic slowdown we may infer thus far, is well founded :neutral_face:

I may have a struggle getting these last few lbs off. Not that I’m whining about it and my success has been huge; but my frame is so ridiculously small I truly do need to be 110/105.

#12

no studies…no studies… no studies…

Subjectively then, I always ask myself why am I hungry, or am I really even hungry at all? Am I bored? Is it the time of day I normally eat but I’m choosing not to? Will I still be hungry 10 minutes from now or is it a passing fancy triggered by some random reference to steak or whatever.

(hottie turned hag) #13

@carolT yep none of above. At risk of sounding brag-y I have no emotional triggers, good sense of what actual hunger is and good satiety awareness. This is actual hunger. Hence my fear if I ignore it met slowdown shall occur. But, I do need to be smaller. At 5’ 2" -barely- and child sized skeletal structure (I suspect secondary to psychosocial dwarfism induced by severe and long-sustained abuse from infancy on but I digress) I still have flab aplenty. Esp my stubby peasant legs.

NOT that I GAF about appearance; post-menopause that went by wayside. I do want to be my “correct” size just because.

#14

Maybe alternate fasting and feasting? About a 48-72 hour cycle. Not long enough to go into metabolic panic mode. And really feast. Screw satiety and go for OMG I’m so full.

(hottie turned hag) #15

@carolT girl I did just that this week :grin: just past. Fri I gorged like mad with the view to not eat til the Mon -72h-.
Ate on the Sa/Su AND Mon :expressionless:

As a former fasting fiend I am not best pleased with this new nonsense.

Today, again determined to get to the 48h, I made this thread, and am obsessing over in the “fell off horse” section. Hoping someone will say met slowdown shall not happen (with a fun anecdote cited).

#16

Ok, then not a study but Megan Ramos talks about such strategies here based on anecdotal experience with fasting patients. http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=58

There’s episode time stamps in the first content.

I not much in the fun department in this case. :grimacing:

(hottie turned hag) #17

@carolT NICE! Listening now…:headphones:

(hottie turned hag) #18

I thought of making an accountability thread but being so introverted that feels too attention seeking and icks me out so I’m going to put this here.
It goes to the thread’s topic in a way.

So anyone who has seen my posts will note I’ve been struggling with being able to fast beyond my usual once/24h deal, whereas 48h had formerly been easy and was done frequently, and occasional 72h, too.
Couple months ago I dropped cheese and veg to break a stall; it worked. I had appetite DECREASE at first.

Of late I have had appetite INCREASE. Past 3 days it has gotten outta control. NO NEW FACTORS in play, no stress, no changes to blame.

I’m appalled at what I did yesterday. Get this: I defrosted cheese I had in freezer -now this isn’t even cheese I like; it’s a kind I use just for grating over stuff so that tells you- put jarred peppers on it and ate the entire block :expressionless:

Then a little while later…I DID IT AGAIN. Another 8oz block down the hatch.

This was after I’d already consumed: a good sized NY strip steak, 1/2 lb bacon, and 2 Italian sausage w/small amt sauerkraut!!

WHAT IN THE HOLY HELL :japanese_goblin:

I heretofore have never NEVER had a self control issue with food. None. Never. This is unprecedented. I mean, I have overdone it on fresh mozz and I did too with pork rinds but that was within the context of them being “on the menu” for that day; NOT walking like a zombie to the freezer, defrosting cheese, WHILE NOT WANTING TO :open_mouth:

Guys this is bizarre. Now note I am at my smallest weight; from ages 14-49 I was 115-125 (then gained a ton and from 2014-2017 was fat af but lost it all fast when started keto 2017) and at last weigh (month or more ago, next weigh May 30) was 116 and look smaller since, SO I am smaller than I have ever been as an adult and maybe my system is resisting getting any smaller?

Apologies for length of post. I am pissed. Self control is a big thing for me.

#19

I’m wondering if anything besides cheese would have sated your ravenous appetite? Feasting is quite normal response to fasting, but the specific cheese craving is …? I dunno.

(hottie turned hag) #20

Ack @carolT, since I’d already shoveled in all that meat I would guess no. This is ridiculous! :zipper_mouth_face: AND I hadn’t been fasting so to speak! 24h has been usual for nigh on 2yr.

Now I’m back to being determined to fast 48h to get “rid of” all that (wasn’t even that great!) cheese. If I fail again I will be beyond pissed.