Is Gluconeogenesis real, or not?

gng
(Human) #21

I know right. The man who fasted for 382 days surely wouldn’t even have been able to lift his head by the end. I’ve even called these radicalized protein groups out on it, but they would rather sit in their sycophantic echo chambers pointing and laughing at what they call the “butter drinkers” than actually go to these groups and try to help someone.

I dare say their macros may work for some, however there seems to be far more stalled/gain/problem posts in these groups and not very many success stories despite their huge membership. The very fact that they refuse to ever at least acknowledge that everyone’s different and one size does not fit all just makes them a bunch of delusional arrogant bigots in my eyes.

(Derek I. Batting) #22

The general scientific consensus seems to be that gluconeogenesis is demand-driven, not supply-driven. There is a really good meta-analysis HERE if you’re interested.

(Sorry about the google cache version. The website seems to be gone now for some reason.)

#23

It does not need to be supply-driven [to result in elevated glucose]. If a person is demanding high blood sugar because of metabolic derangement, excessive insulin and/or glucagon production, for example, reducing the supply will have an net effect of lowering gng.

(Erin Macfarland ) #24

Keto gains says gng is fixed. I don’t quite understand that. And within the context of zero carb this process gets even more complicated. And if you’re active with high amounts of lean body mass how does that change things?

(ianrobo) #25

This is a strange topic because if anyone says not real then my three hour fasted ride and fast as cold would have seen me massively bonk ?

(joe churchill ) #26

From the article:

o We haven’t found any solid evidence to support the idea that excess protein is turned into glucose.

I disagree with this based on my own observations. If protein did not convert into glucose, I would not need to dose myself with insulin in a ratio directly equivalent to the amount of protein consumed.

Dr Bernstein discusses how to do this in this video

Can GNG also be demand driven? Yes. Otherwise how would blood glucose increase during fasting? For me I need 1/2 to 2/3 my normal basal rate, but the point is I still need to take insulin.

(ryancrawcour) #27

not at all. i believe the body can burn fat (from our plates, or from our body fat stores) in to energy. sure. that’s why you don’t bonk on your 3hr fasted ride. b/c your body is drawing down fat stores for energy.

the question was more on does EXCESS PROTEIN turn to sugar.
My doctor, someone known to this community and friendly to LCHF, says it does not. Yet there is evidence that suggests that it does (evidence like having to take insulin when eating protein as a T1D).

(ianrobo) #28

ah but on my 3 hour fasted ride I go above the zones that FASTER said was fat burning, I put efforts in on climbs, mini TT’s if you like.

in other words @ryancrawcour I am drawing down on my glycogen/glucose stores and by being low carb what else replenishes them given that you need 600cal of glucose a day for the brain. Something has to produce glucose doesn’t it, if on Keto ?

#29

The crux of the question is what is “excess”. If you mean more than you need for muscle and other essential body substrates, then yes it will be funneled into GNG, depending on demand for glucose and the type of amino acids. Once the demand for glucose had been met, excess can then be burned as fuel since it can’t be stored directly beyond labile proteins.
The problem lies with people whose metabolisms “want” a blood glucose level above a healthy, normal range all the time. They will see a decrease in glucose by decreasing protein to the point where GNG only produces a limited amount of glucose. Also, the insulinogenic properties of some amino acids will cause a cascade of effects that decrease ketone production and ramp up glucose production to compensate for the lack of ketones.

(Jeff Ryan) #30

So if my net carbs was 10g during the day but went over my protein by 20g would that mean I had 30g of glucose?

#31

Not that simple, no. There are many feedback loops involved and only around 55% of the grams of protein can become glucose, on average.

I recommend testing your glucose (and ketone if possible) levels on a daily basis. If it is out of range, try less protein. If your glucose is normal, try increasing protein until you find a level that works for you.

(ianrobo) #32

well if the problem is failure to get ketones of 0.5 and above I found by reducing protein that worked. However because I do 5 heavy days training a week it really is not a problem for me with a fairly good metabolism …

(Alex Dipego) #33

When keto your glucose needs change. It’s 100-120g of glucose for the brain on a SAD but when keto adapted it can lower to 40g of glucose. That’s 400cals down to 160cals.

The rest of the brain is fed by ketones. You replenish glycogen without eating in a 24hr period. Heck in 12hrs 79% of your stores are filled even without eating. Lactic acid, FFAs and glycerol help in this. Any extra need can be reach for with protein though the body prefers not to as protein sucks as an energy source.

(ianrobo) #34

not doubting you @Abrane but I always though the Brain needed min of 600cals regardless, do you have a link to back up what u said ?

#35

its best to just avoid keto gains altogether.

(Erin Macfarland ) #36

I have a pretty healthy metabolism…run about 20 mikes per week plus 4 weight sessions. Very lean, no IR. You’d think the “higher” protein wouldn’t be an issue

(Erin Macfarland ) #37

:joy: I kinda get the same feeling though I have read some ok science stuff there on occasion

#38

they have the sam science as everywhere else. the issue is they are a very specific crowd that is exercise strenuously and vigorously to gain muscle size. for this you have to eat more protein, and because the body is being specifically stressed that protein IS used to build mass, because the body is not stupid.

if you are not training that way, the body will do what it is designed to do and that is make the glucose it needs from “excess” protein because there is no other choice. protein is not stored, and it cannot be excreted in large amounts unprocessed. glucogenic proteins will be converted to glucose and ketogenic protein will be turned to ketones. there are no other options. this is physiology 101 and is not disputable. what changes is how deranged your metabolism and hormone system is. one person may tend to gluconeogenesis from protein more vigorously than another.

(Alex Dipego) #39

Chapter 5. Of Dr. Brandt’s book Endocrine

image.png1242×2208 552 KB

(ianrobo) #40

OK thanks for that, interesting …