Intermittent Keto?

#13

Some of the rationale behind cycling is to keep leptin regulated while dieting, but I think that could also be handled by a refeed not specifically carbs?

(Khara) #14

I’m coming in really late to this. Decided to look into carb cycling cause I keep hearing newer ketoers talking of it. Personally, with all the science I’ve read here, I’m skeptical about the carb cycling but figured I’d at least see if there is any compelling evidence to support it.
I feel my satiety signals have improved, considerably, with Keto and IF/EF. When a carb eater, as many of us experienced, my satiety was non existent. So personal experience tells me fasting would be better for leptin than carb cycling. And, as some people stated above, I’ve noticed I actually feel hunger the morning after some extra carbs. But, I now don’t trust that hunger, like the carbs are lying to me. It seems a bit ironic to me anyway that carb cycling might be thought of as regulating leptin when carbs have always been such a hindrance in this area.

(David) #15

It might be worth looking at the YouTube channel for ketoconnect. They did a month of carb cycling and reported on the results.

#16

I have been eating very low carb for over a decade (carnivore for past 2 years), and during that time, I lost close to 180 lbs and have maintained my loss for 8 years. When I began, I read an article by a physician who claimed to have worked with Dr. Atkins. This guy suggested doing a ‘carb day’ every 6-8 weeks. He explained the science, but I was new to all this at the time and couldn’t follow it. But I took his advice, and exited ketosis with carbs every 6-8 weeks. I had no problems with eating the carbs or stopping after one day. Did it help me? I have no idea, but I didn’t notice any negative effects at all.

Recently, I followed one of Dave Feldman’s protocols for lowering LDL for testing. I am hypothyroid and have labs every 4 months. Recently my endo was ‘making noises’ about my LDL, so I wanted to see whether Dave’s protocol worked. It is his most recent one that involved eating at least 150g of carbs for
3 days prior to the test. I did that (no grains, sugar, etc.–healthy carbs only) and lowered my LDL by 40 points while my high HDL and low trigs remained the same. Dave considered this a success as I did.

So that’s how I ‘carb’ now (next month is next time). I didn’t have any ‘issues’ with those carbs, but by the third day, my appetite was beginning to increase. I had no problem at all returning to my carnivore WOE.

Mark Sisson claims that being able to exit ketosis occasionally and easily return is a good thing, a sign of ‘metabolic flexibility.’ I have no idea whether he is correct or not, but I know that eating carbs (for a good reason and only occasionally) is not a problem for me.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

So far, I am always a “carb-seeking monster,” even when fully satiated on lots of lovely fat. While I haven’t yet binged on sugar/jam/doughnuts/bread, I’ve had more (healthier) carbohydrate than is good for me several days in the past few weeks. It’s typical addictive behaviour, like the alcoholic waking up from a blackout after intending not to drink the night before. It may be a long while before it’s safe for me to have any potato, say, or any carbs other than what comes naturally in my meat and dairy or the occasional salad.

I guess for me, zero-carb carb-loading is what works best. :smile: :bacon:

(Khara) #18

Thank you. I hadn’t seen this yet. Several interesting take-aways from their experiment. Mostly I find it interesting that they found one day a week to be too much and were speculating that once a month or even longer would be more ideal, if at all. Other than increased gym performance they didn’t have much good to say about it. Interesting too that these are two young insulin sensitive people who struggled to get back into ketosis and by the time they were feeling normal/good again, it was time for the next carb day. Seems to leave a kind of narrow group of ideal people that this might be good for. That gives me some starting knowledge at least. Thanks again. So now I’m left wondering what in the heck the every other day or couple day a week carb cyclers are doing/feeling. Seems to me they’d forever be in adaptation mode. How can that be a good thing.

What does cheating once a week do to one's body?
(Khara) #19

@Mare Your experience of reading and following a doctors suggestion to carb-up one day every 6-8 weeks is in line with the results of the KetoConnect experiment above where they discovered once a week was too often and monthly or longer would be better. Interesting though you didn’t really notice help or hindrance with it.
I’ve had the thought to possibly follow a Feldman protocol as well. I do worry about it causing some negative reactions as far as carb cravings or just knocking me out of sync since it needs to be 3 full days. Good to hear you made it through, but it sounds like right at the precipice with appetite starting to increase in day 3. This may be the only time and reason I ever do a carb-up or carb cycle.
Thanks for the info.

(Khara) #20

Hey Paul… No dividing by zero. Not fair for the mathematically challenged.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #21

:grin:

#22

Indian savory dishes contain high amounts of sugar, as do many Asian dishes. Sugar is used to balance heat and sour.

#23

It seems to me that doing the protocol with only ‘healthy’ carbs was key to lasting 3 days without a dramatic escalation of appetite. I used mainly gluten-free bread (I have Hashi’s), rice, beans and various veggies for my carbs. I also stayed very low fat because of the carbs.

Had I indulged in baked goods or ice cream, etc., I’m sure it would have been a disaster.

(Brian) #24

Though I love rice and beans, they are both things that I’ve laid aside while I’m trying to lose weight. I would think rice and most beans would be quite difficult to incorporate into a keto diet without taking the carbs much higher than what many here would suggest is appropriate.

Baked goods are tough, I am a pretty good baker, somewhat renowned for my fresh ground whole wheat bread. But I haven’t baked a single loaf since starting keto. Just can’t justify the 20g+ or so of carbs for every slice, even if it’s pretty thing. I haven’t ventured into the more keto friendly ice cream or learned to make my own.

Mostly, I’ve found carbs to be a non-issue for escalation of appetite once fat adapted. Once your body figures out how to run on ketones, it has a pretty massive reserve of fuel, at least in my case.

#25

I’m not sure that everyone does well long-term on extremely low carbs. This is anecdotal, but I’ve seen a lot of stories of folks who were very happily keto for several years and then starting getting various symptoms that were alleviated by cycling in carbohydrates - probably nowhere near usual SAD levels of carbs, and high-quality( i.e. not bread, not junk!).
To me it doesn’t really make sense that as humans we thrive on just one macronutrient ratio 100% of the time (unless we’re Inuit or have other genes of peoples who have lived for thousands of years with a very particular diet).

BUT - this is so individual! If one serving of carbs sets you back to day 1, then you won’t want to do it again. If a lot of time in ketosis has really shifted your metabolism to the point that having high-quality carbs occasionally - especially near intense exercise - is not a problem, then you’ll know by experimentation.

One more rationale (that I don’t know much about except that folks seem to really respect the source): Paul Jaminet thinks that long-term low-carb is harmful to the lining of the gut and to other mucus membranes. I’m sure there’s been a lot of back and forth about this in the zero-carb community.

(Brian) #26

The problem that I see in trying to decide if keto is healthy long term is the very varied and diverse number of diets that can legitimately call themselves keto. You have groups all the way from pure meat eaters who never touch a vegetable to vegans/vegetarians who rarely touch an animal product.

#27

Brian-
You seem to have misinterpreted my comment. I was referring to a 3-day ‘protocol’ designed to lower LDL prior to testing (via Dave Feldman). The goal is to get OUT of ketosis briefly.

I never eat these foods normally.

This protocol actually worked for me the last time I tried it–lowered my LDL by 40 points! It is possible (although not proven) that simply being in ketosis unnaturally raised my LDL, since it is so easy to lower.
That’s not a concern for me because I’ve had VAP testing, and all of my LDL is the large, fluffy kind which is considered better (although not optimum).

However, insurance issues are important, so it’s better to have ‘good’ numbers on record, which is why I do this.

(Brian) #28

Hi Mare,

My apologies, I wasn’t really speaking of your 3-day protocol. I should have quoted the post above mine, specifically, “Paul Jaminet thinks that long-term low-carb is harmful to the lining of the gut and to other mucus membranes.” That’s painting with a very broad brush, in my opinion, anyway.

As for the 3-day protocol, I find it interesting and would love to actually understand it better than I do. I did have it explained to me before but it hasn’t sunk in to the point that I understand it well enough to actually tell someone about it. :wink:

I haven’t faced the insurance problems… yet… but I think I’d be wise to consider having “good numbers” when/if I do have to face them. It bugs me that such insignificant numbers can be such highly esteemed benchmarks while other important things might be ignored or belittled. Kinda the world we live in, though…

Again, sorry if my comment implied a critical reply towards you. Definitely not intended! Hope you’ll forgive me. :slight_smile:

#29

That was me. I wasn’t really painting, just listing for Larry some of the reasons for folks to cycle carbs (he asked for the rationales for doing that). I don’t actually know much about the mucus membrane question, just know that Jaminet is a serious guy who’s done his research. He may well be wrong (or wrong for many folks) but there’s probably something of interest in there so I put it on the list of possible reasons that someone might want to keep carbs in their diet some of the time.

(Ken) #30

Carb cycling is merely a tool. It is not necessary for everyone. It is often usefull if you hit a weight loss stall, and well worth trying. The less lipogenic hormonal resistance issues you have, the higher potential for it to be effective. There is no imperative for the process, as long as you feel fine and have plenty of energy. It will reverse a metabolic slowdown, especially in those training heavy. I’ve been doing it for over a decade, with no fat regain. However, I had been lipolytic for over two years with a 180 lb. Fat loss before I went back into the gym and started training again. It was then after four months of training that I determined I needed them. I successfully restarted my fat loss.

Not everyone need’s them, but they are a valuable tool.

For people not training, merely a meal or two, or even one day on an infrequent basis may certainly be enough. For most people, you have to overeat carbs by an excess of 1000 cals per day for two days to completely refill glycogen. This is the upper limit, there’s no possibility to add fat until after that.

(VLC.MD) #31

It’s a good forced reminder that carbs are disgusting and you should be lucky you can afford good Keto food ?

Carb cycling sounds bad for most people most of the time.

#32

I don’t agree that carbs are ‘disgusting.’ My body functions better without them, but I don’t ‘demonize’ any food.