Intermittent Keto?

[PaulL]

Hey Paul… No dividing by zero. Not fair for the mathematically challenged.

[Wishbone]

Indian savory dishes contain high amounts of sugar, as do many Asian dishes. Sugar is used to balance heat and sour.

[Mare]

It seems to me that doing the protocol with only ‘healthy’ carbs was key to lasting 3 days without a dramatic escalation of appetite. I used mainly gluten-free bread (I have Hashi’s), rice, beans and various veggies for my carbs. I also stayed very low fat because of the carbs.

Had I indulged in baked goods or ice cream, etc., I’m sure it would have been a disaster.

[Bellyman]

It seems to me that doing the protocol with only ‘healthy’ carbs was key to lasting 3 days without a dramatic escalation of appetite. I used mainly gluten-free bread (I have Hashi’s), rice, beans and various veggies for my carbs. I also stayed very low fat because of the carbs.

Had I indulged in baked goods or ice cream, etc., I’m sure it would have been a disaster.

Though I love rice and beans, they are both things that I’ve laid aside while I’m trying to lose weight. I would think rice and most beans would be quite difficult to incorporate into a keto diet without taking the carbs much higher than what many here would suggest is appropriate.

Baked goods are tough, I am a pretty good baker, somewhat renowned for my fresh ground whole wheat bread. But I haven’t baked a single loaf since starting keto. Just can’t justify the 20g+ or so of carbs for every slice, even if it’s pretty thing. I haven’t ventured into the more keto friendly ice cream or learned to make my own.

Mostly, I’ve found carbs to be a non-issue for escalation of appetite once fat adapted. Once your body figures out how to run on ketones, it has a pretty massive reserve of fuel, at least in my case.

[Madeleine]

What is the rational for cycling carbs?

I’m not sure that everyone does well long-term on extremely low carbs. This is anecdotal, but I’ve seen a lot of stories of folks who were very happily keto for several years and then starting getting various symptoms that were alleviated by cycling in carbohydrates - probably nowhere near usual SAD levels of carbs, and high-quality( i.e. not bread, not junk!).
To me it doesn’t really make sense that as humans we thrive on just one macronutrient ratio 100% of the time (unless we’re Inuit or have other genes of peoples who have lived for thousands of years with a very particular diet).

BUT - this is so individual! If one serving of carbs sets you back to day 1, then you won’t want to do it again. If a lot of time in ketosis has really shifted your metabolism to the point that having high-quality carbs occasionally - especially near intense exercise - is not a problem, then you’ll know by experimentation.

One more rationale (that I don’t know much about except that folks seem to really respect the source): Paul Jaminet thinks that long-term low-carb is harmful to the lining of the gut and to other mucus membranes. I’m sure there’s been a lot of back and forth about this in the zero-carb community.

[Bellyman]

The problem that I see in trying to decide if keto is healthy long term is the very varied and diverse number of diets that can legitimately call themselves keto. You have groups all the way from pure meat eaters who never touch a vegetable to vegans/vegetarians who rarely touch an animal product.

[Mare]

Brian-
You seem to have misinterpreted my comment. I was referring to a 3-day ‘protocol’ designed to lower LDL prior to testing (via Dave Feldman). The goal is to get OUT of ketosis briefly.

I never eat these foods normally.

This protocol actually worked for me the last time I tried it–lowered my LDL by 40 points! It is possible (although not proven) that simply being in ketosis unnaturally raised my LDL, since it is so easy to lower.
That’s not a concern for me because I’ve had VAP testing, and all of my LDL is the large, fluffy kind which is considered better (although not optimum).

However, insurance issues are important, so it’s better to have ‘good’ numbers on record, which is why I do this.

[Bellyman]

Hi Mare,

My apologies, I wasn’t really speaking of your 3-day protocol. I should have quoted the post above mine, specifically, “Paul Jaminet thinks that long-term low-carb is harmful to the lining of the gut and to other mucus membranes.” That’s painting with a very broad brush, in my opinion, anyway.

As for the 3-day protocol, I find it interesting and would love to actually understand it better than I do. I did have it explained to me before but it hasn’t sunk in to the point that I understand it well enough to actually tell someone about it.

I haven’t faced the insurance problems… yet… but I think I’d be wise to consider having “good numbers” when/if I do have to face them. It bugs me that such insignificant numbers can be such highly esteemed benchmarks while other important things might be ignored or belittled. Kinda the world we live in, though…

Again, sorry if my comment implied a critical reply towards you. Definitely not intended! Hope you’ll forgive me.

[Madeleine]

My apologies, I wasn’t really speaking of your 3-day protocol. I should have quoted the post above mine, specifically, “Paul Jaminet thinks that long-term low-carb is harmful to the lining of the gut and to other mucus membranes.” That’s painting with a very broad brush, in my opinion, anyway.

That was me. I wasn’t really painting, just listing for Larry some of the reasons for folks to cycle carbs (he asked for the rationales for doing that). I don’t actually know much about the mucus membrane question, just know that Jaminet is a serious guy who’s done his research. He may well be wrong (or wrong for many folks) but there’s probably something of interest in there so I put it on the list of possible reasons that someone might want to keep carbs in their diet some of the time.

[240lbfatloss]

Carb cycling is merely a tool. It is not necessary for everyone. It is often usefull if you hit a weight loss stall, and well worth trying. The less lipogenic hormonal resistance issues you have, the higher potential for it to be effective. There is no imperative for the process, as long as you feel fine and have plenty of energy. It will reverse a metabolic slowdown, especially in those training heavy. I’ve been doing it for over a decade, with no fat regain. However, I had been lipolytic for over two years with a 180 lb. Fat loss before I went back into the gym and started training again. It was then after four months of training that I determined I needed them. I successfully restarted my fat loss.

Not everyone need’s them, but they are a valuable tool.

For people not training, merely a meal or two, or even one day on an infrequent basis may certainly be enough. For most people, you have to overeat carbs by an excess of 1000 cals per day for two days to completely refill glycogen. This is the upper limit, there’s no possibility to add fat until after that.

[VLC.MD]

But I took his advice, and exited ketosis with carbs every 6-8 weeks. I had no problems with eating the carbs or stopping after one day.

It’s a good forced reminder that carbs are disgusting and you should be lucky you can afford good Keto food ?

Carb cycling sounds bad for most people most of the time.

[Mare]

I don’t agree that carbs are ‘disgusting.’ My body functions better without them, but I don’t ‘demonize’ any food.

[infromsea]

For people not training, merely a meal or two, or even one day on an infrequent basis may certainly be enough. For most people, you have to overeat carbs by an excess of 1000 cals per day for two days to completely refill glycogen. This is the upper limit, there’s no possibility to add fat until after that.

Good write-up Ken. I do a “carb cycle” using beer

Do you have links/references for the “1000 cals per day” statement, I’m curious to see the data/science behind it.

Please understand, I’m not calling you out here, I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m genuinely curious to see if someone has done a study or if this number has been verified, I’d like to see the source and maybe apply that “rule” to my own diet/nutrition/woe. I’ve noticed that I can get back into ketosis faster and faster after “cheat days” (lots of beer!) and would like to optimize my “process”.

Thanks,

Tim

[VLC.MD]

I don’t agree that carbs are ‘disgusting.’ My body functions better without them, but I don’t ‘demonize’ any food.

Neither do I.
I just dont consider bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, sugar, cereal as nutritious.
Just filler.
starchy filler.
For people that need to improve their health … these items are a major barrier.

[240lbfatloss]

1000 Cal’s per day over two days is an estimate/generalization. It’s really about storing around a day’s worth of energy as glycogen. So, to be more accurate, it would be to overeat one day’s caloric requirement in the form of carbs, in excess of what is burned, over two days. 2000 Cal’s is really close enough for most people. Even if you recompensate more than a day’s worth, there is little or no chance you’ll store any fat.

The best ways to eat grain are obvious. You either feed it to an animal first, then eat the animal, or use it to make beer.

I read the studies over a decade ago, as I recall Lyle McDonald cited several. The important thing is that it works.

[PaulL]

The best ways to eat grain are obvious. You either feed it to an animal first, then eat the animal, or use it to make beer.

I love you people!

[infromsea]

use it to make beer.

Make beer!
Make beer!
Make beer!

Thanks for the response. I’ll check out Lyle’s references etc. I’m enjoy trying to tweak this WOE to a point where I can still enjoy my alcohol!

[240lbfatloss]

If you use beer or other alcohol for recompensation, it’s important to drink plenty of extra water. Alcohol is a diuretic, it’ll dehydrate you. It shuts down the Kreb’s cycle at the cellular level, causing hangovers. The rule of alcohol when in lipolysis is that it hits you twice as hard, twice as fast. One extra glass of water per alcoholic drink usually does the trick.