Increased food intake for endurance cycling?

(What The Fast?!) #1

I was listening to the Megan Ramos episode and also the metabolic rate episode and am really getting behind this idea of driving up metabolism by eating more food. I totally get why CICO is bad news, so my question is about endurance cycling and how to eat around it.

I did a big bike ride today (35 miles, loads of climbing, took about 3 hours) and burned around 1750 calories (based on my Polar HRM, which I have dialed in with my V02 and all my specifics). Do I just do the normal eating pattern of ā€œmoderate protein, fat to satiety?ā€ Or do I majorly up my calories so that Iā€™m not running a deficit and teaching my body to reduce metabolism? Orā€¦is it okay to have a big deficit because my body can go get those fat calories from stored fat?

Iā€™d love some insight on this from cyclists - and any science you can provide! I want to make sure Iā€™m fueling correctly! @richard @daveketo @echomanrog @EatSleepRide Any other cyclists??

(What The Fast?!) #2

@fiorella this is the question I mentioned.

#3

The idea is to eat to satiety, and not resort to a mathematical formula that gives a CICO output of macros/calories (which is based on a lot of metabolic rate assumptions). Perhaps the 1 gram per kg LBM is on the low end if you engage in lots of exercise, and you may need a higher amount (somewhere between 1 to 2 grams per kg LBM). But, this is something you should test, and donā€™t forget to make sure that the protein you eat is accompanied with fat (i.e. donā€™t eat lean chicken breast on a bed of lettuce). Make sure that the fat is with the meal to buffer the insulinogenic response.

Does this help?

(Richard Morris) #4

Satiation is in my opinion a better fuel gauge than a formula because itā€™s factoring in thousands of inputs from signals we are only vaguely aware of.

As for protein, I did an experiment where I went ultra low protein for 2 months. It was at the very bottom of the Australian RDI range which is 0.84g/KG LBM, which for me at 80.38KG LBM is around 67g of protein a day. I noticed when I dipped below 62 that I would get really profound cravings for food with umami flavours like seaweed, or stinky cheese, or meat, or vegemite.

I suspect that we have a strong ā€œProtein hungerā€ signal but most of us donā€™t get below ā€œProtein satiationā€ to even notice it. So it may be that a formula for protein may run in to the same limitations as a formula for Calories especially if you are doing more weight bearing exercise. As I say itā€™s just a theory but Iā€™m planning to do some more self experimentation on it after Ketofest.

In the meantime I would pay attention to feeding umami cravings with good sources of protein - just in case.

Observation of 1 day of high protein
#5

very interesting.

I believe that when we crave particular flavours (like citrus, salmon, egg yolkā€¦) it is possibly our body signaling a need for a nutrient. So, what you write about umami cravings really resonates.

(What The Fast?!) #6

Thanks to you both @Fiorella @richard I just didnā€™t want to do exactly was explained in the podcast about reducing metabolism by not eating enough calories (vs how much you expend on big cycling days). I wonā€™t worry about it, Iā€™ll just eat and if I still feel hungry, eat some more. :slight_smile: Oddly I wasnā€™t as hungry today as when I did rides like this as a glucose burner!

(Dustin Cade) #7

@Fiorella and @richard are always full of incredible information!

(Richard Morris) #8

I hope some of it is at least credible :wink:

(What The Fast?!) #9

@richard Final question (promise!): Do you tend to eat way more fat on a day where you burn thousands of calories on a bike ride or do you find you still get to satiety in similar proportions? (I know you fast and cycle a lot, but when youā€™re not fasting?)

Sorry - I know I need to experiment but hearing other peopleā€™s experiences are SO helpful for reference!

(Richard Morris) #10

Itā€™s hard to tell Andrea cos I almost always ride fasted and usually Iā€™m at least 3 days into a fast ā€¦ so itā€™s hard to tell what is an effect of resumption of feeding and what is responding to a dramatic energy expenditure.

I should start tracking my food diary again so I know how many calories I am eating to best answer that question. But my gut feel is that I eat maybe 10% more that meal ā€¦ but not nearly enough apparent calories to replenish my recent expenditure. I think I just have too much capacity in 25kgs of body fat that I never get quite close to my personal redline. That body fat gives me a lot of options, Iā€™ll be a little sad to see it go :slight_smile:

(Karl L) #11

Fascinating stuff here, canā€™t wait to get ā€˜over the humpā€™

(What The Fast?!) #12

Hahhaha! I have about 36-37 lbs I think (going to get a DEXA soon) and I will be happy to see 15-17 of those gone - I definitely wonā€™t mind having to eat extra dietary fat to compensate for those long rides!!

(Ritchie Linden) #13

A really interesting topic, I have found that I can do long days 6-8hrs, but not super intense effort on the bike fasted but the following day fasting is impossible and i just cant stop eating. And on shorter intense ride with tough climbing efforts say 40km with 12km of climbing at 8% I feel weaker if fasted but not drained or bonking and the next day have no issues fastingā€¦

(ianrobo) #14

very good debate and my thoughts ? Well do majority of my rides fasted and only for the real long ones 75 miles plus do I eat before hand, afterwards I eat as much Keto unto full.

In other words when exercising IMHO then do not worry about balances etc and just listen to the body. One rule everyone says when fasting, if you feel slightly dodgy then eat, same applies here.

(Patrick McNally) #15

Donā€™t worry about putting back in what you took out. Think of it from this perspective: Were you able to perform well? If so, then when you are done, just get back to your regular life. This advice is coming from a ketogenic racing cyclist. Let your body tell you whatā€™s up. Do NOT majorly up your calories. A 3 hour 1750 calorie endeavor is an endurance activity, itā€™s what your body is designed to do. It isnā€™t a triathlon. Let it pull from fat.

One consideration that I have found is to have a little bit of carbohydrates before bed so that I donā€™t exhaust my liver glycogen, thus spurring the process of making more, which will wake me up. Chris Masterjohn has a good few podcasts on this.

Once fat adapted, you can do lots of amazing stuff without changing your diet.