I'm frustrated 😢

(Consensus is Politics) #61

I don’t remember where I found this. I think Steve Gibson said something about it on his podcast, but I was also in this big kick to research things myself, or at least double check the sources.

Have you ever wondered how “they” come up with the suggested amount of anything to be taken? Like vitamins? Well, for vitamin D3 it should give you cause to question things even more. Get this, when deciding how much Vitamin D3 should be the daily amount… “They” had no idea. So “they” put their heads together and came to a conclusion.

“Well, you know, Waaaay back in the day, shortly after the beginning of the industrial revolution, Americans were getting sicker from various maladies. Really, just in general, sicker than we used to be. Pretty much all sickness was on the rise. But someone figured out those that didn’t get sick were on diets different from the norm.”

I don’t remember the exact diet, but I remember something about the Eskimo people being part of this. Eventually they worked it out to Cod Liver Oil. So mothers began giving it to their kids. Much to the kids dismay, it must have tasted nasty [judging by the old TV show, 'The Little Rascals". It turned out that Per 1 tsp dose it contained between 500-1000 IU’s of Vitamin D3.

So “they” decided on 600 IU’s as the standard dosage. In other words, an educated guess. :roll_eyes:

I could have done better than that. I would look at how much the human body can produce under optimum conditions. It turns out that the mid day sun (from about 10am to 2pm) is the only time that matters. Outside that window and the sunlight passes through too much atmosphere and filters out the needed UV rays. Also, there is diminishing returns after about 30 minutes. After 30 minutes of sun exposure the bodies production of Vitamin D3 drops off dramatically. During those 30 minutes the body produces 10,000 to over 20,000 IU’s of Vitamin D3.

With that in mind, I began my V-D3 supplement at 20,000 per day. I eventually modified it to 10,000 IU 2x a day. Not knowing if taking so much at one time had its own limitations, maybe not absorbing it all or just small amount, I split it up.

I started my Vitamin D3 regimen in 2007. I haven’t had a cold or flu since then. Also no flu shots. My seasonal allergies 99% aleviated, with the exception of the heaviest pollen days when even the bee’s are sneezing. I just get the sniffles.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #62

The history of RDA is kinda interesting. Established during WW2.

#63

That’s very interesting. I was just at my MD last week and she questioned why my D3 dose we “so high?”
I only take 5000 U.
I have heard that some psychiatrists will recommend high dose for depression.

#64

Isn’t vitamin D fat soluble??

(Consensus is Politics) #65

When I started taking high doses of D3, one of the first things I did was research overdose. I couldnt find anything for adults, only for children. But it was never specific, just children, no ages or weights. They all said the same thing, “For children, taking 60,000 IU’s will result in toxicity in 30 days”.

That left me wondering… how do they know that? And, what age children? 2-12 yrs old? or Preschool? Grade School? High school? Too many variables to count, and they left it so vague. Somewhat vague like when drug makers state, “if you miss a dose, take the dose you missed as soon as you can, unless its close to the time for the next dose, then just skip the dose you missed and continue on with the normal dosing schedule.” I asked my Doctor how close was too close. He didn’t answer, he just looked at me as if I should know the answer to that. He changed the subject too.

(Consensus is Politics) #66

Yes it is. So when you are taking high doses, like I do, say 20,000 IU’s a day, I can miss a few days and not worry about my D3 levels dropping because I have it stored in my body. [That led me ask the doctor another question that he couldnt answer, how long does D3 stay in the body? I figure I hit a good value for myself, as I continued to feel great and didnt have any signs of D3 toxicity…

Bone pain
Confusion or disorientation
Constipation
Extreme thirst
Frequent urination
Fatigue
Kidney stones
Muscle weakness
Nausea or vomiting
Weight loss or poor appetite

Although; I do have a lot of trouble with Kidney stones. But have been for about 7 years before going on extreme D3.

(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #67

Interesting. I was on 10,000 iu for several months then 5,000 for about a year before I developed a kidney stone. I was on that dose as ordered by my dietitian as my blood work was showing very low D which didn’t change very much at all after taking the higher dosage anyway. When I went to the urologist he called my dietitian an idiot for putting me on that dose and said no more than 1000iu daily. (There’s so many conflicting opinions amongst doctors these days, I don’t know who to believe!)

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #68

After I had my accident last year, the surgeons put me on a dose of 5000 IU a day, plus a very large dose every so often (every Monday? first Monday of the month? can’t remember), since vitamin D promotes the absorption of calcium, among a lot of other things. I’ve continued the daily dose, even though the bones finished knitting long ago, and it does seem to help.

(Consensus is Politics) #69

I had my first Kidney stone pass back in 2002 give or take. Wow. I was in some severe pain. I thought I had some kind of poisoning and was dying. I couldn’t even crawl across the floor. I just lay there. My dog actually helped me into the bathroom. Rocky, the worlds smartest dog. Got under my arm and practically carried me. That was five years or so before I started doing Vitamin D3. Before that, I worked outside, on the flightline, in the USAF. For about 15 of those years I was in the southwest desert, Mojave and Sonoran. Rarely ever got sick in either one of those, especially Sonoran, er… Phoenix valley. 99.9% sunshine, the exact opposite of England where I spent 4 1/2 years. Whole family was sick 90% of the time there.

So when Steve Gibson (grc.com) did his own n=1 study of the effects of sun exposure vs supplements for Vit D3, the results made sense. As did the supposition that D3 is critically important part of the bodies immune system. Many more studies have shown its critically important to nearly every function in the body!

I’m willing to concede to the urologist that high levels of Vitamin D3 could help in the production of kidney stones. But like you said, there seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions about what causes those formations. My opinion is Vitamin D3 alone isnt the culprit. I think its more likely a diet imbalance that cant correct itself. But in the process of trying we get the formation of kidney stones. One of the factors that points to the many cause theory for me is the different types of stones created. Different minerals. Different looking stones. Like fraking snow flakes they are! The one that had me laying of the floor crying for several days (my second stone, and Rocky had passed away by then… sniff) that fraker was the size of a medium watermelon seed, and same shape, smooth and ovoid. But it had the added feature of having what looked like the fat end had a crown of razor blades coming out of it. It was scary looking. I didnt have a camera phone at the time, or I would share a picture of that little horror.

For the past couple of years, after passing yet another horror of a stone, I discovered some research suggesting that lemon juice could cause the stone to dissolve. The suggested reason was acidic erosion of the stone. Making it at the very least smoother. So I bought the little boxes of “True Lemon” and “True Lime” and made Lemon/Lime aid every day. Fairly strong too. I would say it worked.

My next few stones were about the size of a grain of rice, same size and shape. Very fluid dynamic. I knew I was passing them, but they were barely even uncomfortable. But enough to know what it was. Of course, such a small self study is full of variables that couldnt be accounted for, but it was a start. And I haven’t had a killer stone since. :sunglasses:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #70

I met a guy once who said that when he was hospitalized for kidney stones, his nurse, who had experienced both, told him that kidney stones were even more painful than labor and delivery. That’s got to be bad!

I read an article fairly recently that outlined the mechanism of the formation of kidney stones and the role of insulin in the process. Gotta get in the habit of bookmarking these things!

(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #71

I hear you. With the reduced sunlight I have living at 55 degrees north, lack of vitamin D has me worried. I want to go back on at least 5000 IU daily, but the pain of the stone is still too fresh in my mind. :smile:

I’m doing the lemon juice thing too since the stone and so far, fingers crossed, there’s been no reoccurrences.

#72

K2 seems to be very important, especially when you’re supplementing with vitamin D. Here’s from Chris Kresser’s blog:

Balance Your Fat Soluble Vitamins
This would be my top priority for any patient suffering from kidney stones, specifically calcium-oxalate stones. As many of Chris’s readers know, we require more than just vitamin D to properly metabolize calcium in our diets and in our blood, yet unfortunately, most nephrologists and dietitians never consider the role other fat soluble vitamins play in calcium metabolism. But vitamin A and vitamin K2 are two nutrients that are critical for balancing out the effects of vitamin D and making sure the calcium from our diet gets deposited into our bones and not into our arteries. (For more information about vitamin A, D, and K2, you can check out my review of a great book on the topic.)

In someone with kidney stones, vitamin A deficiency, vitamin K2 deficiency, and vitamin D excess are all prime suspects to be considered in terms of both absolute amounts and proportions between the vitamins. Chris Masterjohn, PhD has written volumes about the importance of balancing these three nutrients, and especially balancing vitamin A with vitamin D, as an excess of one will lead to a deficiency of the other. In fact, vitamin D excess is considered to be a risk factor for kidney stones in the conventional medical world, and studies show that people exposed to high levels of sunlight (such as lifeguards) are at higher risk for stones. (4, 5, 6, 7, 8) Interestingly enough, adequate vitamin A intake protects against excess vitamin D, as Masterjohn has made clear in his series on the topic.

Vitamin K2 may play an independent role in kidney stone development. As Masterjohn points out, “patients with kidney stones secrete [vitamin-K2 dependent] protein in its inactive form, which is between four and twenty times less effective than its active form at inhibiting the growth of calcium oxalate crystals, suggesting that vitamin K2 deficiency is a major cause of kidney stones.” While the research is still new, I think there’s no reason not to ensure adequate intake of these nutrients in your diet for health maintenance, and you might find it helps with preventing kidney stone formation.