I'll Say One Thing for CICO

(Sarah Slancauskas) #41

Yeah. I’m not prepared for it to take a year!

#42

keto, along with any other diet where you track macros, is essentially a calorie restrictive diet. You are counting calories when you count macros, you’re just counting specific types of calories. If you aren’t losing any weight, or even gaining, you need to adjust your macros unless your goal is weight/muscle gains. I’ve found that after almost 7 weeks on keto, I have a new daily calorie intake. I used to eat at least 1800 calories every day (probably way more) on a carb loaded standard american diet, but since I’ve been on keto, I have essentially dropped down to around 1500. I’m not hungry and I’ve broken my very bad snacking habit. For me, keto is about counting calories, it just also ensures that you are eating the right types of calories to promote fat burning. I’m not sure the “eat less, move more” motto works though because it oversimplifies our ability to process calories equally. if you’re having a hard time losing weight, lower your fats and proteins by a small percentage. Stick with that for a few weeks to see if you see weight loss. I don’t believe in those charts that show height and weight and tell you what your macros should be. That doesn’t work for everyone, especially me because I exercise 6 days a week doing both strength training and HIIT cardio. I need more fuel than just using that standard chart.

(Edith) #43

Thank you. I am definitely going to give that a try. I don’t do HIIT, I mostly run and do some strength training. I know that, supposedly for aerobic exercise, fasted is good, but my body always performs better when it has a little food in it before I run. I’m hoping that maybe some targeted carbs following the workout may help with recovery. I’m 52 and I think my body may need a little extra help with that.

(Jennifer Kleiman) #44

I’ve been working on getting in touch with my satiety signalling lately. It’s weak, it definitely doesn’t shout, but I’m starting to hear it. It’s swamped by the taste of sugar or even just spices and salt. I can ignore it and keep eating and it won’t yell at me to stop, at least until I’m stuffed. But I can definitely feel a “ok, we’re good, that’ll do” when eating blander food, even while enjoying it - like simple meat or veg.

I did the “potato hack” diet for a few days a couple weeks ago, ate nothing but white potatoes for 3 days (and remained in ketosis the whole time btw). That was the ultimate in bland. I let myself be fully driven by satiety signalling and gave myself permission to eat as many plain white potatoes (just a bit of salt, no butter). Three or four medium potatoes did the job every time I sat down to eat and wow after the last one, I was done, not stuffed but not at all interested in eating more. I think it really helped me get in touch with that little, weak voice.

Knowing what that voice sounds like now, I have tested and it just seems to depend on the food. Roasted, salty nuts? No satiety signal til I’ve eaten a heck of a lot. Steak? I feel pretty satiated at about where my macros say I ought to be.

Personally I think CICO works within broad strokes. The body uses hormones to fight back against weight loss and to defend set points, especially for us women. To create a hormonal environment favorable to long term weight loss AND simultaneously to create an energy deficit is not always easy or even possible, but that’s what’s necessary IMHO.

(Edith) #45

One more question? How are you determining how many carbs to target and when you do, about how many carbs do you eat for the day?

(Sarah Slancauskas) #46

I don’t go crazy on the carbs but I include a carb-rich food instead of a more low-carb choice. So I would have sweet potato or some other root vegetables with meat instead of low carb spinach or greens. I do this about 30-40 mins before the workout. If I still feel a bit low energy beforehand, or if the workout is going to involve heavier weights, I might add in a good quality protein ball which is also higher in carbs. These work a treat! Post workout I always increase my protein over fat and will have carbs if I feel depleted. I’d i feel ok though I will keep the carbs to less than 5% meal. I think it’s a case of trial and error, depending on what exercise you do, what intensity you do it at and what your food preferences are. These extra carbs are on top of my usual 20g a day, not incorporated into it. Is that helpful?

(Rob) #47

No it isn’t. It may be for you right now but for many there is NO calorie restriction in the long term and certainly not enforced (except by satiety). Appetite varies wildly in the early stages (where you are) but many lose weight after adaptation with no restriction below their estimated TDEE. Some never can do this, but that is a function of their specific metabolic state and capabilities rather than the inherent values of the WoE.

It’s a bit like the people on here who aren’t prepared to wait for their bodies to adapt to their chosen form of exercising on keto. That’s fine that they want to add carbs that are immediately burned off by their workout to make up for the temporarily missing energy but it isn’t a deficiency in the WoE, just their bodies taking their own sweet time to adapt sufficiently well. Laird Hamilton isn’t eating some carbs before hours of surfing, the professional rugby players aren’t eating oranges at half time for a fructose boost… they are keto adapted athletes. People should do whatever gets them through their day but it doesn’t make them expert prognosticators about keto.

(Edith) #48

Thanks. I guess that’s why it is called targeting. I wonder… I guess one could eat a good portion of their daily carbs before and/or after their workout to replenish but not need to go over their carb tolerance for the day by just timing the intake.

(Terence Dean) #49

Good for you, at least you KNOW what works. I’ve been criticized for even mentioning fruit, and then there’s others saying you don’t need vegetables either. Just ignore the zealots as I do and keep doing what works. Hell green leafy vegetables are a great way to add magnesium to your diet, at least the body knows what to do with it, never had to take magnesium, or extra sodium in the whole time I’ve been doing this keto gig. I actually like vegetables now!

(Rob) #50

Don’t feel persecuted… a lot of people came here very sick (the first wave of users for sure and many since) and even after a lot of healing, fruit is a no go for them. Forgive them a little over-reaction when other people state that fruit is fine.

The “no vegetables needed” thing is just a fact… needed is not the same as wanted or allowable within keto macros. Micronutrients (or the fiber myth) from fruit/veg is massively overblown given the historically low levels available in modern greens grown in typically mineral depleted soils. You get far more micros from offal than veggies. Good luck with getting 400mg of magnesium from plants. It’s your choice to get your micros from wherever you want (offal, veggies, fruit, supplements) but there’s no need to pretend that veggies are a superior option per se.

(karen) #51

This is true if you plug your carb macro into a calculator, but many people who do keto just restrict carbs to 20 grams or less, add reasonable / moderate protein - with or without a macro goal, and then ‘fat to satiety’, which could be 500 calories or it could be 2500 calories. It’s only about calorie restriction if you chose to make it so.

(Robert C) #52

I had two thoughts come into my head on offal vs non-offal options.

The first was that if offal is richer - how much less often can you have it? For example, if you always have a variety of leafy greens salad with dinner, do you replace that with chicken liver (eating into your protein budget - lowering your Ribeye steak size each night) or can you just have chicken liver once a week to make up for the 7 salads? (I don’t know anything about nutrient retention.)

Second was that there is at least one case I know of where vegetables are better (because it is my case) which is iron overload. It can be from genetics, lifestyle (catches up to you in your 50s) or, if you are a woman that was always fine with iron - menopause (which gets rid of a good way to excrete iron) can also send iron high (high iron destroys your organs).

I agree that for many the carnivore diet can be great (as long as it is nose-to-tail and not just Ribeye every night) but I would encourage anyone thinking of giving it a try (or anyone that is doing keto with a lot more red meat than they have ever had before) to have their iron levels checked/monitored.

(Central Florida Bob ) #53

That’s me. I’ve never used a macro calculator. Since I’ve been keto for years, I haven’t needed to think about what’s acceptable to eat for a long time. If I have a handful of blueberries with whipped cream, say, and the next morning I’m still blowing a good amount of acetone in my breath (on the AT6000 breathalyzer), I know I’m good.

(Rob) #54

I haven’t done a pure ZC for long and when I did I used supplements anyway rather than offal. Ironically, when I’ve had offal (which I like but isn’t good at the places I usually shop), it’s been with veggies :grin:

My only point is (and yours too by example) that there’s multiple approaches to most keto objectives, but all of them require some thinking or planning if you are not intuitively used to them (and can go lazy).

(Terence Dean) #55

I don’t think I’m pretending anything, its your choice to get 400mg of magnesium from a bottle, or offal I’d rather let my body decide whether it needs to extract Magnesium and other elements from the food I eat. I’ve never needed 400mg of magnesium in my life, I wouldn’t even know what that looks like!

Besides that, there is NO definitive way to eat Keto, fruit in small amounts is allowable (if you’re able to eat it), some vegetables are fine, so trying to sell the idea that its NOT necessary to eat any vegetables is misleading. Some vegetables contain higher levels of carbs so you may need to be aware of how much of those you consume but otherwise they are fine, so long as one follows the Ketogenic food triangle as a guide its all good.

BTW I’m not a vegetarian or vegan either if you’re wondering.

Even Dr. Stephen Phinney gives an example of what he may eat in a day in this video link, funnily enough he’s got 2 cups of chopped green vegetables as part of his lunch, omg!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0NE8WEH44A

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(Sarah Slancauskas) #56

I tried that first but it wasn’t quite getting me there. I targeted my usual macro around the workout but found I needed the extra carbs on top of that. I also felt it needed to be sweet potato or tuber as quite a ‘carb rich’ option as the greens weren’t giving me that push I was searching for. The sweet potato I eat is in a small amount but it gives a great power boost!

#57

If you are saying there is no calorie restriction, does that mean you could potentially eat 5000+ calories per day and still lose or maintain weight? Of course it doesn’t. Just because you don’t eat an excess of calories on keto or even if you aren’t “counting calories”, the reason keto works is because you aren’t hungry and therefore naturally eat fewer calories. There are lots of newbies to keto that can’t figure out why they aren’t losing weight and it’s most often because they are eating too many calories, even if it’s in fats, it can still be excessive. If you are eating low carbs (below 25 grams per day), moderate protein, but gorge on sticks of deep fried butter and end up consuming (400+ grams of fat), keto won’t work for you. This is an absurd example, but I’m trying to make a point. Keto is based around controlled macros, which if you do the math, it’s also based around controlled calorie intake. There is a limit to how much food you can eat, whether or not those macros and calories are counted meticulously or not is beside the point.

Also you said “no restriction below their estimated TDEE”. Isn’t this the same as saying you can’t eat more calories than you burn in a day? Isn’t that a type of calorie restriction also?

(Doug) #58

Great post, Noapples4u. :slightly_smiling_face: Over the past couple weeks, this is one that really stuck with me. Your writing has an excellent flow to it.

(Terence Dean) #59

I just went through a three day stall, didn’t panic but let it go for three days to make sure it was what I thought it was, as far as I could remember my normal calorie intake had not changed and yet my weight was not going down as it has for the past 10 weeks. So yesterday I tried an old trick I used to do on JC diets, that was to eat something totally against the rules, had to decide whether it was going to be a Cadbury chocolate bar or a large piece of commercial cheesecake, oh horrors that has sugar and carbs, OMG! I settled on the cheesecake for lunch, skipped what I normally eat for that meal and continued eating my normal dinner, water, exercise etc. Bingo! This morning back on track again and losing.

This is a phenomena that happens on diets, I’ve noticed previously, sometimes the body just gets stuck into a routine, maybe its partly the starvation mode (which should not be in my case I’m well above the calorie requirement), I don’t know but all I know is that sometimes a decent shock will jolt it out of what its doing and away you go. I’ve read that someone got their stall to move by dropping Stevia, for others they have done something different.

I have no clue about the science of what this is or perhaps its just placebo, whatever, if it moves things in the right direction who cares, right? :keto: KCKO

(LeeAnn Brooks) #60

I used to do that on LF all the time. Just a planned cheat to shake things up. I’ve been too afraid to do any cheats on Keto due to the whole throw yourself out of ketosis thing, but I haven’t really been in a stall yet. It’s coming off slowly, but it’s still coming off.

I’ll have to remember this and consider it if I do putter out.