IFBB Competitor looking for help with carb cycling on keto

bodycomposition

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

For explosive exercise such as body building, you may well need some carbohydrate for full performance, as even Dr. Phinney points out in a couple of his lectures. But I am not a body builder, so I am not in a position to advise you, sorry.


(Ken) #3

I suggest you go over and check out the Keto sub forum on Bodybuilding.com. the specific protocols are there in the Stickeys, and lot’s of folks there are actually doing it.


(Justin Jordan) #4

The KetoGains FB group might be worth checking out. I know some of them do a targeted approach where they take a (fairly small) amount of carbs in right around the workout.


#5

That is the theory, however once you start processing those carbs your out of ketosis, you’ll go back but how quick is very individual dependent. Doing it around your exercise is a more targeted approach than it is cyclical. I’d look into Robert Sikes which does traditional keto and Jason Whitrok which I’m sure you know of who does CKD. Also remember, it takes a lot longer for fat adaptation to effect muscles like it does the rest of you. Tricky for you as I’m sure holding your pro card means it’s a lot harder for you to go through that without getting screwed.


#6

I am confused by what fat adaptation for muscle means. When I listen to most of the scientists, they say the fat muscle adaptation is aerobic, and I’ve definitely crossed that threshold. The first few aerobic sessions on keto after a 16 hour fast on top of the keto were absolutely brutal, but I eventually got to the point that I could do aerobics like the energizer bunny, pretty much non-stop without fatigue. In fact, it’s gotten to the point that the carbs actually ruin my aerobic power, I do better on MCT Oil. So me thinks that part is adapted. is there a chemical pathway for anaerobic burning of free fatty acids? If so, what is it? Seems what I’ve heard mostly is that keto bodybuilder can only effectively build muscle if they properly refill their glycogen stores. And ketogains claims this happens via gluconeogenesis of protein. If there is a magical anaerobic FFA process, then yes, that’s not gonna happen before my next contest in 18 weeks.

Well, I’ve started down the line of carb cycling and I am monitoring things best I can. At this point I am going down the path of experimenting with TKD, and I am hovering around 50-70g or carbs. The insulin response has helped me with uptake of creatine, which I was pretty much just pissing out on my keto pre-workout protein shakes. I can tell from my mental state that it kicks my brain out of ketosis and switches it to glucose, but not my liver, since I still measure ketones in my blood. The explosiveness is back in my lifting, that is nice. I was thinking of experimenting with cutting back on the carbs and substituting fenugreek extract, which gives a nice insulin response and has shown to provide the equivalent uptake of creatine as 70g of dextrose. I know about Jason Whitrok’s keto but didn’t realize it was CKD. I am not crazy about CDK as I’ve not been able to adapt it to my 6 days a week regimen. I would have to do two cycles a week for it to support my lifting.


#7

I lurked around the Ketogains FB group for a while until I saw that they pretty much enforced a dogma, removing comments and posts from any other source or any challenges, so I left. Their FAQ suggests they believe muscles run on ketones, which runs counter to any scientific and medical knowledge about the body. Muscles run on free fatty acids, not ketones. But my approach is pretty close to ketogains.


#8

You figured them out quick! There very cult-y over there, not much better than /r/keto for that crap.


(Karl L) #9

Check out Keto Savage (Robert Sikes): http://ketosavage.com/keto-savage-introduction-and-mission/


(Justin Jordan) #10

I don’t generally post there for that exact reason. But there’s useful information there.


(Ken) #11

If you already know about TKD and CKD, you should be fine. Are you cutting for your contest now? Besides the carbs around training, are you also doing periodic glycogen recompensation? If cutting, are you restricting calories or at least not eating until hungry? What caloric deficit are you aiming for? More than 500 per day? Are you consuming extra salt that could mask progress?

If you haven’t done a complete glycogen recompensation, I suggest you try one. The results can be profound, and you won’t really know until you try one. They don’t have to be every week, I sometimes do them after two cycles of my three day split, or if I think I need one I’ll do one after one cycle.

All these aspects can have an effect.

I’m long since adapted. I regularly do HIIT when both lipolytic and fasted. I don’t have any problems. I generally only consume carbs around training when I’m not cutting.


#12

Thanks for the input. Could you share what a glycogen refill looks like for you?

I pretty much got the hang of cutting on keto, and consider myself fully keto adapted as I can do fasted training in solid ketosis without any fatigue whatsoever. I am now in a bulking phase, and for the last three days have seen amazing results from TKD, meaning I eat carbs for about three hours, so starting an hour before workout, during workout and and hour after workout. It’s not a lot of carbs, but I am slowly ramping up the carbs. So far, 70-100g still has me in ketosis 2 hours after working out. My pure SKD CHO macro is 50g since I am on a 4000 calorie daily intake. I didn’t mention I do intermittent fasting, 16:8 when cutting, 14:10 when bulking. The IF appears to increase my carb threshold rather significantly, and on days when I do outrigger paddle, my carb threshold is even higher. I love keto because of the athletic endurance it gives me, so if I can figure out those carb thresholds for weight lifting, I should be able to stay keto outside my workout windows.

Oh, also, because of the short eating window I have for 4000 calories, I usually do 50g protein before, 50g during and 50g after workout, so I literally pound 150g of protein in 4 hours. I need 250 total, so I will do another 100g in meat the rest of my eating window. Not sure if it kicks up gluconeogenesis, my workouts are grueling, so my protein needs are pretty high.


#13

So my question is this, are Robert Sikes’ results doable without sarms?


#14

Only reason any of us should be over there is to save the newbs from falling victim to all the stupidity over there. People are literally afraid to speak out against it, I used to get PM’s all the time to the effect of “Thank god somebody else that does ACTUAL keto!” It’s friggen bad over there.


(Ken) #15

OK, I got it. I think you’re asking the wrong question. Fairly typical with someone who has been taught keto doctrine, rather than the wider concepts of lipolysis and lipogenesis.

I think what you really want to know is how to be lipostatic during a bulk, gaining muscle but not fat. Yes, this is done while following a lipolytic, fat based nutritional pattern, but Carb intake becomes larger and more periodic, often suspending lipolysis, (including ketosis) but without reestablishing a Carb based pattern resulting in chronic overcompensation of glycogen and subsequent fat regain.

Am I correct?


#16

I had to re-read your paragraph a few times, but yes, in essence that’s it. I’ve been studying this for a bit now, and came to the conclusion that the ideal carb range for me is in the 75-150g range, with adjustments to that amount to stay just right below the glycogen full refill level so that excess carbs go into muscle glycogen instead of getting converted to fat. Calorie deficit is avoided by having both high enough protein and fat levels and the dietary fat is more protective against going catabolic. Either way, the appropriate carb levels prevent ketosis for the most part except for the fact that I do intermittent fasting. The longer 16 hour window without food typically lands me in ketosis within the last 2 hours of the fast.


(Ken) #17

I don’t recommend a specific, daily amount of Carb intake. This is because you could gradually end up with recompensation, and the possibility of overcompensation. Your muscles don’t need to be anywhere near total compensation for training performance. So, I consider breaking up the pattern by having very low/no carbs days frequently, keeping muscular glycogen at around half of capacity rather than chancing chronic overcompensation. This also means you can occasionally go for total recompensation, as long as it’s followed by strict depletion.


#18

Fast twitch muscles run only on glucose.Slow twitch run on glucose and carbs.You dont need carbs to get creatine into muscle.Protein increase insulin and that is how it works in natural creatine source,meat.Carbs do increase insulin more,but on keto you are more insulin sensitive.

I lift and sprint,first two or three weeks I felt weak and low endurance,but it completly disappeared after three weeks.Fat can be converted to glucose too.I think carbs are superior for hardcore fast twitch training,but even heavy training is ok in my experience on keto.

The liver + muscle glycogen and fat & protein conversion to glucose is enough to fuel explosive workouts for most people.I believe human body is very adaptible,if you do explosive training on keto,there are couple ways that body does to mitigate the glucose problem.

First,your organs like brain and heart start to use more ketones than glucose for energy,that means more glucose for fast twitch fibers.Also your slow twitch fibers start to run on fat,again,more glucose left for fast fibers.

I am not sure,but I think liver can over time develop increased capacity to turn fat and protein to glucose,kind of like when you are on dat dere celltech and your balls shrink,then after you come off,over time they will grow in size and their testosterone production capacity will increase,I believe same thing happens to liver,its use it or lose it adaptation.Inuit have larger livers,but that is probably either genetics or the need for nitrogen removal,not becose they are powerlifters.


(Bunny) #19

Not sure if this is what your looking for but it might give you some info on your questions?

Ketosis: Post Workout Carb Timing: Thomas DeLauer

Ketosis Overview

When the body turns to burning fat it creates molecules called ketones

Ketones are created when the body breaks down fats, creating fatty acids, and burned off in the liver in a process called beta-oxidation

End result of this process is the creation of ketones, which are used as fuel by the muscles and brain

In simpler terms, since you have no more glucose or glycogen, ketosis kicks in and your body will use your stored/consumed fat as energy

Pre/Post Workout Nutrition

Studies have looked at post workout timing and its effects on strength and hypertrophy

Show that as long as you’re getting enough of the right nutrients throughout the day, you’re not going to see much added benefit from a perfectly timed post workout meal

Whether you’re in ketosis or not, a proper daily intake will work the same as a perfectly timed post workout meal

While on a ketogenic diet, the focus should be on maintaining ketones so that you have an adequate supply and to refrain from dipping in and out of ketosis (1)

Carbs and Ketosis

Carb Intake for Different Styles of Training While in Keto

Cardio-Based Training

Those who do a lot of cardio – running, biking, marathons, etc. don’t need to worry about carb intake

Studies show that aerobic training (endurance training) isn’t affected by low carbohydrate diets

A study was done on well-trained cyclists who were on a ketogenic diet for 4 weeks

Results showed that aerobic endurance was not compromised at all.

Their bodies adapted through ketosis, limiting both glucose and glycogen stores, and using fats as the predominant energy source.

Even if you are doing very long cardio training, marathons and biking included, a ketogenic diet has been proven to be sustainable (2)

Weight training and Carb-upping

Carb intake may change if you lift weights

The only real time where ketosis can give performance loss is in exercises that need an explosive action

If you need a little boost in your performance during these, you can “carb-up”

Carbohydrates do help your performance and also help with recovery of muscles. That means faster gains, and better strength performance in your training sessions

There are two routes you can take here – TKD and CKD

TKD

A targeted ketogenic diet, where you’re intaking just enough carbs before your workout to knock you out of ketosis for the duration of your workout

How it works is that you supply a glycogen source to your muscle to use, and then once it is used up after you finish your workout you will resume a ketotic state.
• Could cause you to feel sick some of the time by being in the grey area of in/out of ketosis.

CKD

A cyclical ketogenic diet, and is a more advanced technique

It’s more for bodybuilding and competitors that want to stay on a ketogenic diet while still building muscle

In this method, you stay on a regular ketogenic diet for a period of time (usually 5 days) and then do what is known as a carb-up for a period of time (1-2 days)

In a CKD, you are essentially replenishing all of your glycogen stores for all the training you’ll do for the rest of the week, and your goal is to deplete that glycogen – essentially a refeed period (3,4)

In Summation

Research suggests that carbs consumed before or after exercise should not negatively affect ketosis

However, some individuals may find that they drop out of ketosis transiently due to the ingestion of pre-workout carbohydrates

After a workout, there will be a short period where insulin is elevated and free fatty acid availability for ketone production is decreased

However, as blood glucose is pushed into the muscles, insulin should drop again allowing ketogenesis to resume within several hours

Post-workout carbs might be expected to have a greater effect on ketosis, in that insulin levels will most likely be higher than are seen with pre-workout carbs
• Kicks you out of ketosis easier because insulin sensitivity is so high after a workout

So individuals may want to experiment with pre-workout carbs first

References:

  1. The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydra… - PubMed - NCBI. (n.d.). Retrieved from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865776
  1. Should You Eat Fat In Your Post Workout Meal? - JCD Fitness. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://jcdfitness.com/2016/09/should-you-eat-fat-in-your-post-workout-meal/
  1. Ketogenic Diet FAQ | Ruled Me. (n.d.). Retrieved from https://www.ruled.me/ketogenic-diet-faq/#working_out/
  1. Mythbusting: Training On a Keto Diet | Ruled Me. (n.d.). Retrieved from https://www.ruled.me/mythbusting-training-on-keto-diet/

See also:
Build Muscle on a Keto Diet: Nutrition Science - Thomas DeLauer


Bulking tips
(Ken) #20

Interesting topic. Recent research has shown that the heart runs very efficiently on ketones. That would mean that Type 1, slow twitch muscle fibers can utilize them. I haven’t read the study, but if true it implies other muscles or at least the type 1 fibers within them can as well.


(charlie3) #21

I’m trying to figure out what the above means for the rest of us who do keto and lift for health and fitness and not competition. Do I need to be experimenting with carbs before my 2-3 times a week lifting sessions? I’ve got keto pretty well dialed in now and not eager to be tampering with it. I’m at the stage in life where it’s not the goal to gain as fast as possible, rather to gain for as long as possible.