If CICO doesn‘t work (as per Fung) why does IF work?

#82

completely agree. My apologies if the sarcasm wasn’t clear.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #83

Sorry, I missed your sarcasm as well. I will leave my post, because I think it helps to explain my attitude towards carbs.

(Jane) #84

Oh I thought you were serious. My bad!!! :astonished:

#85

Edit: Sorry I missed the sarcasm as well as some people truly thinks this AND it’s really true in many cases.
I think we all know people who eat a ton every day and harm their bodies and rather takes pills despite they don’t solve their problems…

It’s NOT always that simple but overeating and little exercise is very common.
I admit I am naturally lazy but it never kept me from exercising (I am quite inactive now but not because of that) but it mattered little, I ate more than I needed. And I overate because I was HUNGRY. There were other reasons as well but it was the main one. I still am the same. If I am hungry, I eat. If I get tempted, I eat… It’s just vastly different when I don’t eat much carbs. But finding the right diet is often very hard and most people have lots of prejudices I don’t have. And yep, most people care WAY less about their health than I do. I don’t get it but people doesn’t like to do something for their health. Many do but much more don’t.
Exercise is usually the smaller part even for the ones who lose fat easier with exercise.

And for many people this topic is super complicated and way more difficult than for me (often both emotionally and physically).

#86

Sorry for the confusion guys and gals.
As someone who went on a year long vegan , 500- 1500 calorie a day diet. Low fat, low protein and low carb… Yes exactly real starving. I can say the CICO is a completely bogus model of weight loss it sort of triggers me.
I remember the first week of going Keto and IF. Adding salmon, half an avocado, and egg to my lunch salad , and losing weight. So adding I can’t remember 600+calories, causes weight loss. but the simple fact is the difference between eating the getting your nutrition in a defined period of time (IF), is completely different then not getting enough calories all of the time (starving)

In regard to exercise. People are not fat because they aren’t exercising.
Exercise does not help you lose weight. Steven Phinney’s experiement showed that restricting calories or exercising over you calorie intake has the same impact. It lowers your BMR.

#87

In a strange refraction of the light, I can see your tongue in your cheek. :grinning:

I know it’s a bit late to mention that. But I hadn’t read all the way down to your update post (above).

I would contend that it does help. If one exercises to deplete the muscle glycogen stores, the muscles can use more free fatty acids for energy. If the muscles are drawing free fatty acids and glucose (to replenish glycogen stores) from the blood, that increases the mobilisation of body fat stores in the absence of ingested carbohydrate. On the flip side, if the muscles aren’t exercised and have adequate glycogen they don’t take part as much in the energy metabolism, thus reducing the fat storage mobilisation with subsequent body fat loss.

#88

Since we are speaking in general. Mileage my vary.

I would agree that exercise can make a good diet better, but if you are on a bad diet you are sunk.
The diet is the key.

As you indicate exercise can help to make you more insulin sensitive but it will also make your "more hungry " so you will tend to eat more.

I guess my main point is for CiCO using exercise to increase the CO part of the equation doesn’t really work.

I’m totally not against exercise I think we all need to get it consistently cardio and weights.

(Mame) #89

I don’t know who originally said ‘you can’t out-exercise a crap diet’ but it’s true

Exercise is great for many things. It can increase one’s well-being in many, many ways which indirectly can help one lose or maintain weight. Sometimes… or not.

I love to go out dancing. I get a mood lift, my body feels great, I connect with people (and then get to go home alone), it stretches my muscles, it’s anti-aging, there’s music so I get that good brain pathway connection, makes my bones stronger, probably helps my metabolism health. However it also makes me super hungry and if I do it on Sunday night it fucks my fasting for Mondays…

nothing is perfect :grinning:

#90

We MAY eat more, it’s not a given. My little exercise usually lowers my hunger but I am almost never hungry anyway. If I go for a long hike, I do get hungrier but I still will have a huge energy deficit as I just can’t eat a ton afterwards and anyway, I do higher-calorie days even when being inactive, they just happen and feel right.
My SO eats the same, no matter his activity.
And yes, many people get hungrier, that’s a different case. Some people thinks they may eat an extra slice of cake after a short walk, well, that’s the worst case…

But exercise has its benefits, it’s good if people do it even if they do it for the wrong reason that doesn’t even work so well for them, hopefully they will feel their body needs it… It seems we quite agree about it.

#91

“You get abs in the kitchen and muscles in the gym.”(Jaime Seeman)

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #92

Maybe we should stick to science here instead of gut feelings and preconceptions? There are studies that fat people consume less calories on average than thin people.

75% of the population over 65 is diabetic or prediabetic. You want to tell us that 75% of us overeat and don’t exercise?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #93

I think it is clear that excess weight is a symptom of metabolic and hormonal imbalance. Caloric input/output doesn’t matter much when the internal processing is haywire. Some people gain weight no matter how little they eat, some don’t no matter how much.

And no, I am not denying thermodynamics. Some folks store energy even when they are eating very little. Others burn it faster. It’s interesting that both extremes of obesity and emaciation are symptoms of metabolic and/or hormonal inbalance. My dad was a good example. He had a haywire thyroid and/or haywire insulin/glucagon balance. No matter what or how much he ate he was always very thin, to the point of emaciation until he was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. The standard ‘treatment’ of the era was to nuke his thyroid. After that, he steadily gained weight for most of the rest of his life, no matter what or how much he ate or didn’t. He did not get obese because he ate too much, he got obese because his metabolism refused to burn stored fat, and just kept storing it.

#94

I don’t know the percentages so I used the word probably. But fine.
100% of fat people overeat (=eat more than they would need for a slim body), that’s why they stay fat. Not so bad but scratch that, I don’t like 100%… My imagination is pretty good in those things and even if it isn’t, I am not sure there aren’t interesting things. An extremely tiny fragment of them might function in super odd ways so they stay fat or stay slim while eating the same. I need a different definition for overeating then. It’s overeating if they eat too much to lose.
I don’t say they can do much about their overeating or if they eat more than I eat now. Or that eating little enough to lose is advisable or healthy (but such a limit exists as no one stays fat when eating nothing or even a little more. I am totally sure about that, hail nature laws).
Overeating has nothing to do with other people’s calorie intake. Overeating is relative. It’s way easier and sometimes kind of inavoidable to overeat in a messed-up body.

I don’t say fat people should blame their so many calories but very many, probably most of them eat too much and exercises little. We see it all the time, people eat a lot! 75% isn’t such a big number for overeating over 65, do you think it is? But I can’t possibly know and only talked about the fat ones.There are statistics about average calorie intake, it’s not much info but still helps a bit. And most people in the world exercises too little, even from my viewpoint and I am a lazy one with little activity. Not like it has much to do with my opinion.
Fat pretty much raises the energy need, of course if one messes up the body, it may have the opposite effect but balancing out very much fat, that is tough. And the human body fights valiantly.

My style won’t change, sorry. I do my best to make educated guesses and wonder about things, what else could I do if I can’t shut up? I don’t even believe studies as I can’t know if they are true and they often use too little people, things interfere and so on. I just like to think about things, it’s fun.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #95

You do know that there are mice that literally starve to death and remain fat?
You do know that there were populations observed that were starving at less than 2000 calories a day (with hard work) and still were more obese than the current US population?

Jesus, you placed yourself now officially in the “troll” category, and I won’t feed you anymore.

#96

No and I don’t believe it but it doesn’t happen with people according to the zillion experiences (and it’s the same with cats, dogs, horses and whatever animals we saw starved). Masses starved during history and they never was fat when they died of hunger (no food may cause some too serious health problems and one can die due to them though, of course but it’s not common). Experiments, famines, death camps, shipwrecks, we have lots of data… Everyone lost their fat (and most muscles). I don’t know about any special snowflakes but even if they managed to escape my attention, they are just that, super rare special snowflakes.

What about it? That slow metabolism seem far from impossible.

Thank you! I actually don’t love this arguments very much myself, I just couldn’t not react.

(Justin Jordan) #97

Actually, I’d like to know more about this.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #98

Gary Taubes lists several such populations. One of them was in Trinidad in the 60s, where the women would be really fat while their children were malnourished. (And they certainly didn’t let their children starve to eat hamburgers at McDonalds.) The diet is listed at below 2000 calories, with only 21% fat (which is way below the fat percentage in the western diet).

He talks about this in this video, I think 10 minutes into the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSl4Kcx4XY8. The whole talk is well worth watching.

There are several modern papers about this overweight/underweight “paradox”, but they are usually rooted in the CICO model and don’t even think about the possibility that obesity might not come from overeating, so they call it a “paradox” instead of applying science… :frowning:

(Justin Jordan) #99

Malnourished and starved are not the same thing, though. You can for certain die of malnutrition with ample bodyfat.

(Teb Tengri) #100

All these “muh CICO works” don’t seem to know bell curves exist

#101

Hey everybody- steka who intitiated this thread hasn’t replied in ages. So what? Are we arguing among ourselves? I have told just about all of my friends who are overweight to try keto. NONE of them have. On the other hand I have met people in random situations who are on keto and love it. I have 2 friends, one who is with Weight Watchers and another has a dietician and is basically doing the low fat version of a diet. Each has lost weight. I think the problem is that they will gain it back one day. But it is kind of like trying to push somebody into a religion.We have to drop the missionary stance. I think many are sceptical of keto and even fear it. So I guess we have to stop trying to convert people. It is about finding it on your own.
I would even go as far as to perhaps assume that Steka is young? When I was young and going out to the disco and flirting and dating- i was much more motivated to repress my hunger than when i got older and that part of my life played less of a role. I was also never sporty and avoided sports like the plague. It is also something that I could not sustain because I dont love it. How many elderly people actually remain so mobile and sporty? Or even retain a body sense as supposedly is given by yoga? Not many people have it. A german saying goes “Sport ist Mord” which means sports is murder. It is all about motivation and willpower. My problem was that when I got older, and was under the influence of insulin, I had no willpower to resist the hunger that always befell me. Maybe some people dont when they are younger too- there are so many reasons to lack that motivation. But the main thing about keto for me is the insulin effect is gone. Otherwise it would be just as restrictive as any other diet, and IF or EF would be impossible for me to do. There actually are people who do IF without keto and they lose weight too. I just cannot manage it when the hunger is there. Now that I am not hungry, I can easily and naturally.