IF and Coffee

(karen) #1

Anyone have any new info on what is allowed outside of the TRE window? Sanchin Panda says coffee is a no-no; apparently the caffeine stimulates the digestive system, and even though there’s no actual calorie metabolism going on, that ‘wake up call’ opens the window. I’m kinda wondering if anything that sends signals to the brain (maybe even something like toothpaste) also wakes it up … and whether it actually makes any difference if it’s “awake” or “asleep” if there is no actual calorie processing happening. Haven’t been able to find much … anyone? anyone? ETA: my primary reason for keto / IF / fasting is repair and potential for cancer prevention, which seems to happen much better with / during fasting periods.

(Allie) #2

All depends on your own body and what your goals are. When I’m doing IF I don’t count fatty coffees as food, but when I do longer water fasts I stick to black coffee only… then when I’m doing longer fasts and feel the need, I’ll start the day with a fatty coffee. It’s all very individual.

(Pete A) #3

I don’t know what’s “allowed”, but I IF daily, with black, empty coffee when I wake up (hour 12 usually). Depending in how I’m feeling I sometimes add coconut oil…usually closer to hour 15.

You can gauge and count however you want but with Keto there’s only your own personal experience. That will teach you best!

Good luck.

(Robert C) #4

Repair (through refeed after inducing autophagy) and cancer prevention fasts are usually discussed in terms of 5 day fasts every quarter or every year on most podcasts I have heard. I also often hear of smaller benefits in these areas with IF but the big benefits seem to always be mentioned in terms of really getting autophagy going by sometime in day 2 or 3 and then letting that magic work until day 5 (when I guess there is a diminishing return and usually compliance issues).

(karen) #6

Yep, that was what my first fast (5.5 days water only) that brought me here was about. (Before that I tried working with Valter Longo’s fast mimicking diet, which just seemed like a gigantic pain in the rear, easier to forego than to walk a line). I’m just hoping to optimize any benefit from IF in between - figure if I’m gonna do it at all, I might as well try get as much benefit as possible. Unfortunately there’s no practical way that I know of to measure autophagy in a meaningful real-time way; I can’t have a lab test done two or three times a day!

(E.O.) #7

Saw Dr. Group say even a fatty coffee ruins autophagy–and even when I heard him say it, I was wondering if that is true for everyone or just him/his body because of the way he said it. Dr. Berg’s videos say more than 1 cup a day of caffeine anything is going to slow down your weight loss because it stimulates insulin. Lots of non-eating events stimulate insulin in some people (looking at photos or recipes, smelling some foods, thinking about food, etc) but not everyone so I’d bet this is unique to individuals too.

(karen) #8

That’s wild! I think I’d better develop a hobby outside of food and nutrition! :grin:

(Robert C) #9

There was also some talk on the Obesity Code podcast about how the very slight amount of amino acid in coffee could stifle autophagy (which is very sensitive to that sort of thing). Dr. Fung said that for regular weight loss, bone broth, coffee…who cares but, to be sure, for patients seeking adjunct cancer therapies – they recommend skipping even coffee.

I immediately came up with two workarounds:

  1. The one I tried – which works fine (from the caffeine withdrawals point of view) which is lots of green tea during an extended fast. (@eo4wellness - I had not heard about caffeine stimulating insulin - but I also don’t know if a simple insulin increase stops autophagy - it thought it was pretty much only protein sensing.)
  2. The one I haven’t tried yet (in terms of IF) is to simply put my one-meal-a-day or small IF window first thing in the morning along with my coffee.
(bulkbiker) #10

OK lets face it the science behind autophagy is so cutting edge (bleeding edge I thin kits called) that no-one can say for sure what will stop it and what won’t. Also as there is currently no way of measuring it then it seems a bit silly for anyone to say this will or won’t have an impact.
Like the 20g of carbs though I reckon that water only probably does “guarantee” autophagy but as for anything else stopping it no-one knows.
I can’t fast without coffee with cream so have it multiple times a day. If it stops autophagy then fine I won’t get the benefits of that but I still get the benefits of resting my pancreas and digestive system so I’m happy with that.
As the man said “don’t let perfection get in the way of progress”.

(karen) #11

I will do fasts, IF and keto because I believe in the results that have already been proven, but if I can get an improved result that taps into the reasons why they work, all the better. KCKO, but I do like new science almost as much as butter. :yum:

(E.O.) #12

@RobC I’ve also heard Dr. Fung state in a YouTube video that ONLY sugars kick you out of authophagy–that your body continues in a state of authophagy, eliminating what it thinks is most important, until you eat some type of carbs and that fat is okay. Fung seemed to be speaking from specific research studies he read, Group was speaking from personal experience (not certain if he did lab tests on himself or just anecdotal) so it is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps as more research comes out, it will get figured out. . .

(Robert C) #13

My understanding is of what Dr. Fung regularly says is:

  • Only carbs “spike” insulin (fat almost zero response, protein a small response)
  • Just about anything (generally nutrient sensing), but especially sensitive to any protein, stops autophagy

(Note added later - after video linked below: I think I was wrong in saying “just about anything”. Protein stops autophagy but pure fat does not - according to Dr. Fung. And, of course, you wouldn’t be having carbs on a water fast - or fat only fast - because you are likely trying to get insulin down and/or lose weight.)

(Robert C) #14

Here is a super short very helpful Dr. Jason Fung video on autophagy (in it he mentions nutrient sensing but does also say dietary fat would not necessarily turn off autophagy):

(karen) #15

thanks, that was very useful.