If an otherwise healthy keto individual gets Coronavirus, would increasing dietary carbs be beneficial to them?

[OldDog]

But in a worse case scenario if don’t have enough insulin or access to it, you would be up the creek without a paddle if you have respiratory illness?

What does that have to do with the idea that increasing dietary carbohydrates would help with the treatment of CoronaVirus?

In the absence of sufficient insulin, it would possibly kill you…

[atomicspacebunny]

carbohydrates would help with the treatment of CoronaVirus?

Temporary exogenous sugars might be the answer to getting better and healing from a viral infection especially respiratory?

All plants (carbohydrates) get mistaken for sugar in the minds of the advocates for the carnivore agenda?

[MarkGossage]

And your body will be making plenty of glucose to add to the ketones if your already diabetic (ketoacidosis)

Seriously?.. you’re getting quite desperate these days…

[Rclause]

I think @atomicspacebunny enjoys pushing people’s buttons.

[OldDoug]

The immune response, inflammation, inflammatory fluids and potential lung and pleural fibrosis are the components of concern in the lung pathology and survivability of a severe state of the disease. I’ll note here that most people will experience standard cold or flu symptoms.

This is all conjecture. But my chest (c.f. gut feelings) feelings are that enacting a deeper state of nutritional ketosis, and a complementary low blood glucose steady state, would be of benefit when immune responding and eliminating the infection.

I do think we’re pretty much working in the blind, here, but if anything this makes sense to me. Lung tissue gets inflamed, and the response is to secret fluid/pus and those are what create the immediate problem of not being able to breath as well, to get enough oxygen.

The “lower inflammation levels” when eating ketogenically are not in doubt, at least for some of us, eh? I don’t know if that applies to the lungs or not, but at this point I’d lean toward there not being much theoretical, rational reason to increase carb intake, and a decent chance that keto would be a net positive.

[amwassil]

I’m going to share this here with the proviso that it appears to work for me so far but may or may not work for others and/or for me longer term.

I bought some of these (two-packs) at Walmart:

The significant ingredient is Camphor 41.53%, which is an antiseptic. As I mentioned previously here, I’ve been sick with flu/colds off and on since October. During the past 2-3 weeks I’ve been getting over the last bout. As has happened repeatedly, over the previous weekend (7-8 Mar) I started to feel like I was relapsing again. I felt some pain in my lungs when I coughed. The very last thing I want to come down with now is pneumonia, which I have had several times and each time started with simple flu/cold ending up in my lungs.

I happened to have a Vicks Vapoinhaler on hand and thought the camphor might be beneficial if I inhaled it directly into my lungs. So I started breathing through my mouth through the inhaler, rather than sticking it up my nose. So far, the pain in my lungs is gone.

There has been slight irritation in my upper airway. I have ‘treated’ that by sucking on Fishermans Friend Extra Strength Original, which contains eucalyptus and menthol. Also, the salt water I drink during my work shifts soothes the back of my mouth and esophagus.

I wear a mask on public transit, but not at work. I’m thinking the inhaler might suffice. So I use that multiple times per shift. At this point in time, I have apparently stopped the incipient relapse and I’m hoping the camphor will prevent anything else getting a foothold.

PS: yes, I know camphor oil and/or solids are toxic if ingested. I’m not recommending consuming either. Just the vapor.

[Rclause]

I used to use that inhaler when I was a kid. I found that it was somewhat addictive and I would tend to stay stuffed up without it. That was many years ago.

[SomeGuy]

Do you believe the people who established the Dietary Reference Intakes were pseudo-bro-scientists, or were you referring to me?

Any and everyone who doubts Bunny’s elusive essential carbohydrate gets branded a member of pseudo-bro-science. Welcome, bro. Meanwhile in the real world, carbohydrates remain optional.

@amwassil Wait, are you suggesting someone might get a bit feminasty at times?

[amwassil]

As a child, about 10-11 years old, my sinuses got infected. They refused to drain so stuff got impacted. I had to go to the doctor once per week for what seemed like six months to get them pumped out. That was a traumatic experience I would not wish upon anyone. Since then, I have always been careful to keep those sinuses flowing. I only use nasal inhalers infrequently. If ever my sinuses stop flowing, I resort to saline solutions, usually the ones that spray the solution into your nose. Anyway, nowadays my problem is that my sinuses are always draining, even more so if I get even slightly ill. I’m sorely tempted to use a blow torch to burn out those suckers.

[timebuster]

[Momof5]

Happy Forum Anniversary, Michael =).

[atomicspacebunny]

I will be watching it!

Peeps are chatting right now.

Ketogenic diet activates protective γδ T cell responses against influenza virus infection: Influenza A virus (IAV) infection–associated morbidity and mortality are a key global health care concern, necessitating the identification of new therapies capable of reducing the severity of IAV infections. In this study, we show that the consumption of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat ketogenic diet (KD) protects mice from lethal IAV infection and disease. KD feeding resulted in an expansion of γδ T cells in the lung that improved barrier functions, thereby enhancing antiviral resistance. Expansion of these protective γδ T cells required metabolic adaptation to a ketogenic diet because neither feeding mice a high-fat, high-carbohydrate diet nor providing chemical ketone body substrate that bypasses hepatic ketogenesis protected against infection. Therefore, KD-mediated immune-metabolic integration represents a viable avenue toward preventing or alleviating influenza disease. Source

[Nutric]

The lower oxygen requirement of those burning fats instead of glucose could offer protection from the need for supplemental oxygen. I would opt to stay on keto.

[CaptainKirk]

NO!

So far the leading COMPLICATIONS are:

• T2D
• Age
• BMI > 25

All really are indications of inflammation.
Eating Carbs -> Inflammation! So, don’t do it!

[Rclause]

From the explanation of someone that had the virus he felt bad on Saturday and quickly developed a high fever for 8 hours followed by a cough on Sunday. By Monday morning he said “I was good to go”. This is n=1 but if the typical reaction (others may be a lot worse) is this short I doubt any change in diet will have any major effect. You may want to factor in that most people lose their appetite when ill too.

[PaulL]

“A Surprising Effect of Sugar on the Immune System - The Atlantic” https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/498965/
…and now I’m not sure…

I read the actual study and didn’t understand everything, but it does appear that some amount of glucose supplementation should be useful in fighting a viral infection, at least of the influenza type. But the coronavirus we are dealing with currently has some significant differences from influenza viruses (it is more similar to the coronavirus that caused SARS a while back), so I am wondering how generalizable the conclusions of this paper are in this context. Note, please, that I am not saying the conclusions are not generalizable, just that I’m not clear to what degree. Also, the paper relied on studying a mouse model, so there is always the question of generalizing from that to a human model.

My other question is whether it is a good idea to supplement our glucose intake by consuming starch or other carbohydrates (I’d still avoid any sugar that contains fructose, because of the challenge to the liver), or whether the process of gluconeogenesis by itself would generate enough glucose to fight a viral infection. I have read advice suggesting that a ketogenic diet is best for maximum insulin sensitivity, and adding carbs to the diet could be helpful once someone is infected.

[PaulL]

My knee jerk reaction is: heck, no.

Rationale: Since carbs tend to be systemically inflammatory for most of us, it seems to follow that promoting general body-wide inflammation at a time when your immune system is best focused on repelling a specific antigen would not be helpful.

I’m with you on this. But the surprising inference from the data appears to be that bacterial infection is one thing, and it does respond best to a ketogenic diet. But it has been shown that some of the things that help the body deal with a bacterial infection can be detrimental in the case of viral infection, and some of the things that interfere with dealing with a bacterial infection can actually be helpful in the case of a viral infection.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cei.13308

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/eji.201847895

[SomeGuy]

I’m with you on this. But the surprising inference from the data appears to be that bacterial infection is one thing, and it does respond best to a ketogenic diet. But it has been shown that some of the things that help the body deal with a bacterial infection can be detrimental in the case of viral infection, and some of the things that interfere with dealing with a bacterial infection can actually be helpful in the case of a viral infection.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cei.13308

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/eji.201847895

Thanks for sharing these links. I must admit that the first paper link blew right over my head.

My quick sense for what the second linked study is getting at - at least based on my very quick search for passages with either “vir” or “bact” text strings - seems to suggest that viral and bacterial infections produce similar metabolic responses, not dissimilar ones. Unless, of course, my hasty “skim job” missed the larger point.

[PaulL]

I am only about a third of the way through “Beauty and the Beast” (the second link) myself, and so far, the paper has discussed only the metabolic needs of the immune system and how it is affected by, and affects, insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome.

The topic of this thread, however, relates to the metabolic needs of the pathogen, which are different in the case of bacteria, on the one hand, and viruses, on the other. I don’t know if that article discusses them yet, but from what I know so far, generally speaking the rules for fighting bacteria and the rules for fighting viruses are different, even though the metabolic needs of the immune cells doing the fighting are the same in both situations. I’m not sure I’m expressing this clearly, but it’s like saying that you need to put a different chain on your chainsaw, depending on what tree you’re cutting, even though the chainsaw itself always runs on gasoline. At least, that’s the picture I’m getting from this article so far. I’ll revisit this thread once I’ve had a chance to slog all the way to the end.

[AuntJane]

I don’t know if anyone posted this yet, but Dr. Boz seems to believe that keto helps our immune system regulate cytokines, which are heavily implicated in the serious cases of this virus. Start at minute 18:00 because there’s a lot of rambling before that. Oh wait I just checked and someone did post it but without explanation, so I’ll leave this here.