"If a person is in ketosis, they are in a fasted state."


(Stickin' with mammoth) #1

Dr. Ben Bikman sums up my thoughts, exactly. I know this, personally, because nearly all the symptoms of an extended fast are precisely the indicators I use to tell if I’m in ketosis.

I love how totally psyched he is about his research, like a little kid breathlessly telling you all about his week at camp.


(Bob M) #2

That no longer works for me. I can’t tell whether I’m in ketosis or not, but I started 1/1/14. So, if I go on vacation and have carbs such I don’t think I’ll be in ketosis (but don’t know, since I no longer test), I feel no different than when I leave vacation, get back on keto and maybe fast > 24 hours. But, when I was testing, my ketones were very low even while keto, 0.1-0.2 mmol/l every morning. The only way they went up was if I fasted multiple days.


#3

By that method I’d never be in ketosis. In ketosis, out of ketosis, low ketones, high ketones, PSMF, actual fast, zero perceivable difference, only time I’d (assume based on previously doing it) would be if I were to do a multi day fast and had off the charts ketones.

Last week was a quick fat loss for me, so instead of my normal TKD/CKD I went back to standard keto, no problems, no energy issues, no keto flu, last night did a carb refeed for the gym this morning and again, aside from looking better in a t-shirt again, everythings normal. I take in fuel, and I burn it without issue. I think a lot of “feeling” ketosis is a novelty thing when it’s new and you’re used to feeling a certain way, after a while it’s just the baseline again. Even when I was doing standard keto all the time and actually checking them, my ketones were never above 0.4 most of the time unless I was fasting.

I think your results are pretty specific to people who (may) always have really high ketones, which I did in the beginning, but after years of eating this way that usually doesn’t keep up. I do get the nootropic effect when taking exogenous ketones so for me that’s the only time I feel it.


(Tony H) #4

What does a carb refeed look like for you?


#5

To the extent that ketosis is disabled by elevated insulin and fasting lowers insulin, then fasting gets you into ketosis. Yes, Bikman says ‘ketosis is a fasted state’, but I think he means that lowering insulin by fasting enables ketosis and all the good stuff that comes with it. One can certainly be in ketosis without fasting by eating a ketogenic diet.

I think the more important takeaway from this presentation is that consistent ketosis is the natural and healthy state for humans to be in. Good stuff happens at the cellular level during ketosis that otherwise does not. One’s individual, specific experiences during ketosis are obviously different as attested by the many different expereinces described by folks on this forum.


(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #6

My interpretation of his words is that lowering insulin, whether by fasting or by lowering glucose (carbohydrate) intake, puts the body into what is essentially the same metabolic state, whether we call it nutritional ketosis or fasting ketosis. The presence or absence of calories is not the determiner; the determiner is the ratio of insulin to glucagon.


#7

I throttle them depending on my workouts, normally it’s around 50-75g around my workouts, so it’s about half going to glycogen and half fueling me throughout if I can get it in prior, on something like a leg day it’s more around 100g. Usually on my off day which is usually cardio, all the cardio is done fasted, and throughout that day my intake will be around 150-200g to mostly top of the glycogen for the next week and the daily stuff is just enough to keep muscle glycogen mostly full but low enough where I’m still going in and out of ketosis when I’m not eating them. Gotta more or less base it on your muscle mass, more muscle you need more carbs to keep the levels up and you get away with less of the negative effects like to drop offs when you run out of them. I don’t even feel it when I do.


#8

good read on it.

but sorry it is wild and crazy looking, hmm, but if clicked the link works to read for me from the post so click and read I guess LOL but crazy looking.

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=8b1fd4b039f0106174a0bc4b56032acc1f9cf91f213eec18f8d7fddf468e9313JmltdHM9MTY1MzE0MjM3MiZpZ3VpZD0zYTAxMzE4Yi0yYzFkLTRhNmMtOTUzNS02MmRhN2IwM2FlNGUmaW5zaWQ9NTE4Mg&ptn=3&fclid=19ec6fff-d910-11ec-a147-7692f0348bb8&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9zaWltbGFuZC5jb20vZGlmZmVyZW5jZS1iZXR3ZWVuLWtldG8tYW5kLWZhc3Rpbmctd2hpY2gtb25lLWlzLWJldHRlci8&ntb=1


#9

That could have been simplified, but good link anyway.


#10

So why are the relevant authourities not touting it?

Why?


#11

gotta ask them that


#12

Seems to me, things are not right. :/):thinking:


#13

How can all of us be right…and I know it (keto) has worked for me personally. It really has.
And the all other facts are being ignored?

It took me years on the NHS to see a gastroenterologist consutlant.
I actually feel lucky to be consultated, given the current nonsensene going on.

But why has the advice not changed over time?


(Robin) #14

Good points. I feel the same way. When I was a vegetarian for MANY years, I was healthy and happy. But not obnoxious about it and did not debate or boast. It worked.

Until it didn’t. Then I found keto. I am once again healthy and happy and do not debate or boast (outside this forum). And it works.

But I know never say never. today’s n=1 may someday have a different answer for me. But I am happily riding this train until then.


#15

I appreciate this explanation! Thank you


(Stickin' with mammoth) #16

Because we are all like snowflakes.


(Dut) #17

I have the ketone meter I was on a 72 hour fast. The 1st 24 hours I was in ketosis then when I checked it at 48 hours my ketone level was at .3 which means I’m not in ketosis. Anyone else have this problem?


#18

It might have something to do with the time of day you tested and/or your level of activity shortly before testing. Our body makes glucose to meet our muscles need when we are active. Also, glucose rises in the mornings for many of us. I’m not an expert on this, though.

After years on Keto, my blood ketones don’t usually register over .5 often anymore.