One studies I’ve read used 32F air for 90 minutes, dressed in T-shirts and shorts to measure ketones. Another was closer to 50F air, which was enough to reverse Type 2 diabetes in 10 days.
I don’t have 90 minutes to stand around in a freezer, so I use 4 min in 35F water instead. I haven’t done the math, but the argument is that it’s time under temperature that matters. Some equation of minutes multiplied by the number of degrees below body temp might allow us to compute an index of cold exposure that is applicable between freezing and the high 60’s F.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#12
My self observations (autopsy). I’ve been relatively thin all my life. I ate SAD (and drank beer) for pretty much 70 years without serious detrimental effects until my 60s when I started slowly gaining weight. So my guess is that by then my metabolism was beginning to get insulin resistant. This reversed completely when I started keto at the age of 71 four and a half years ago. I’m back to about exactly my weight and comp when I was 18. And I’ll take it!
All those years I preferred cold to hot. Sure, when young I could sun bathe on the beach - for a couple of hours. I spent most of my childhood in Savannah, Ga. But even then I preferred the air-conditioned lounge afterwards. Heat literally makes me melt. Did so all my life and continues to do so. I lived for a decade at Lake Laberge Yukon (the 70s, when the big climate threat was the coming Ice Age!). Summers were moderately warm and short, winters were very cold and long. I thrived in that environment. In fact, I looked forward to the coming Ice Age with eager anticipation.
So I think there are some of us who are genetically preconditioned to being heat radiators, or ‘wasting energy’, as Bikman puts it so succinctly. Maybe my predilection for cold is an indication that I gravitate towards the best place to be - for me.
There are some people who are born with more brown fat and have a genetic predisposition to keeping it. You might be one of those people!
Because brown fat is associated with leaner body composition, and responsible for non-shivering thermogenesis, it could explain your preference for cold.
And Bikman’s book Why We Get Sick is fantastic, I think.
For Bikman’s book is there anything in it to recommend to someone like me, who has read a ton of low carb/keto books (and blogs and articles and…)? Was thinking of getting it, but haven’t bought a book in this area for a few years (other than Jen Unwin’s book, but it’s more about carb addiction).
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#17
I had forgotten about this series of posts. Thanks for reviving it and bringing it back to my attention.
Adding to my autopsy above. A fairly typical fall in Vancouver has turned into a beast of a year-end. I posted the following the weekend before Christmas:
This had been ongoing for a couple of weeks by the time I got around to making the photo and posting it. Although uncomfortable, the temps never got below freezing, just close to it, but the persistent rain made it feel worse. Just to the left of the doors pictured is another set of non-closing doors and the Customer Service Desk. In front - from where I made the photo - are 8 Self-Checkout Scanners. Immediately behind the scanners are 6 cashier lanes. All of these areas are directly exposed to the incoming inclement weather from these non-functioning doors. Consequently, the indoor temp only gradually increased as you advanced deeper into the store.
As long as the outside temp remained above freezing I was not particularly uncomfortable. Although, I felt cool and did wear a long-sleeved T-shirt under my Walmart short-sleeved shirt and vest. Most of my co-workers were very uncomfortable. Admittedly, this was not a productive nor safe environment for folks to work in hours each day. I suspect the BC Labour Relations Board might agree.
I think it was Monday of Christmas week, however, that the temp dropped to -5 -10°C daily. The temp has remained well below freezing to this day and no sign yet that it’s going to get warmer any time soon. Those open doors have rendered that part of the store almost unbearable even for me! In fact, the week preceding Christmas I contracted pneumonia, bronchitis and strep throat one after the other in quick succession! I’ve managed to throw them all off one by one very quickly, but the stress of dealing with the cold and wet for hours on end was too much. Fortunately, I had 4 consecutive off-days beginning on the 25th, so I had lots of time to rest and recuperate. My co-workers are wearing their outside winter clothing in that area. They’re all years or decades younger than I am, but I’m sure they’re feeling very stressed by it as well. I may thrive in cooler temps, but even I have my limitations!
I actually found this thread through reading your original article on this topic; thanks so much for sharing your experience with the community!
My experience is so much more different than yours and everyone else and I wanted to see if anyone else is similar to me. I’ve been fully keto for about 3 weeks now and just recently I’ve been able to record blood ketone levels consistently for 5 days straight between .6 and 1 (this data is from my readings taken at around 10:30/11:00 a.m. before my first meal at noon and I usually fast for either 12 or 16 hours). I’ve taken a few blood ketone readings upon waking up and after my cold shower (temperature between 53 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit, water pressure on high and I stay in the water for approximately 5 minutes and never less than 2 minutes, spinning around to make sure everywhere gets wet. And this is done in the early morning after a HIIT or light cardio 20-30 min exercise) and they have always been between .3 and .5. This, based on some articles I read, made sense because cold showers cause an increase in insulin to help shuttle more glucose into the tissue. But I’ve become confused after reading your experience and others in this thread. Lastly after my cold showers, when I take my blood ketone reading at around 11/11:30a.m. (which is about 4-5 hours after the cold shower and I’m still in my fast), my readings are back at .8/.9.
You’d have to take morning ketones before your shower, then sometime after the shower, to see what happens. I typically have lower ketones in the morning, higher in the evening, so without knowing a “normal” day ketones, it’s hard to tell what’s going on.
I’ve taken my morning blood ketone level readings upon waking up and they are always low and never above .5, which makes sense based on what I’ve read. And since they increase to between .7 and 1 when I take more readings at around 11 a.m. an hour before my first meal of the day it further perpetuates what I’ve come to understand about the early morning rise in glucose levels.
My issue is having low ketones after a cold shower when everyone else is getting high(er?) blood ketone readings under the same experience.
For those with good blood sugars, a cold shower causes your liver to release glucose into your bloodstream, and your white fat cells to release lipids, in preparation for thermogenesis. So your brown fat cells are burning everything they can get: glucose, lipids, ketones, to maintain body temperature. Those in ketosis prior to cold exposure could very well see a temporary drop in ketone levels because the liver will replenish blood sugars faster than it will replenish blood ketone levels.
and ice bath for fun! One poster said it it all----CAN NOT COMPUTE!
old thread but too funny and wow on that experiment, takes guts and glory I don’t have
Ahh I see. Thanks for the insight and if I have anything else to add through noticing something out of the ordinary from my personal experiments, I’ll be sure to share them with the community.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#24
Like pretty much everything I suspect there’s at least some genetic predisposition as well. Those of us with the ‘predisposition’ burn everything available to keep the temp up via thermogenesis. My experience is that I will get hungry before feeling cold. When I start to feel cold it’s because I didn’t eat soon enough to refuel. I suspect those without the ‘predisposition’ tend to add insulation rather than ‘turn up the heat’.
I don’t have the science on the genetic predisposition, but what you’re saying makes sense to me. My ancient ancestors are from the North Sea in Europe, and I live in Phoenix AZ. I’ve become convinced that I need cold exposure to maintain metabolic health because (for whatever reason), I’m not built for the desert climate.
This seemed pretty relevant to this discussion. I’m particularly interested in the part at the 12:15 mark where they speak of females doing one arm cold plunge therapy. That’s all that I’m set up for as of now. I’m definitely finding that my glucose goes up after I sleep, workout & it seems even after eating too much protein. I know glucose is stored in fat and that protein can trigger a release but I’ve been insulin resistant for so many years, I guess that it’ll take a year or more to reverse it & get consistent high ketosis/low glucose numbers after I’ve eaten anything. I’ve just started arm plunging so I’ll get back with my results.
Heck yeah man. I’ve only whole body once but hauling all that ice, etc was time consuming & heavy. Now it mentions females-which I am, & using the non dominant arm. I wish I could find more info on the study. But for now, 10 frozen water bottles & a plastic tote & I’m trying it out. I’ve been testing with my keto mojo-but I’m new at that too-only had it 3 weeks, so just figuring out when I naturally dump insulin has been tricky, plus determining if it’s what I ate that spiked it or not, so I won’t know if it helps me for a bit. Plus, I only lasted 15 seconds the first time, then 20, now 45 so I’m working my way up-lol This was the only place on the web I could find anyone talking about plunging & ketosis time correlations so I figured it’d be a good place to post what I heard. Anyone else have any idea how long it takes from the time you plunge-ALMOST or lightly in ketosis, to get to a moderate or high ketosis & water temperature & length of plunge? I’m not against getting a horse trough if anyone has specific information that it’ll help😂
Glucose going up in the morning is called glucose sparing. I’m still not entirely sure why the body does this, but it’s common for folks on low carb. My blood sugar is highest in the morning and lowest right before bed.
My glucose goes up during exercise too, though supposedly lower intensity exercise like walking makes it go down. I haven’t tested that though.
I looked into getting some cheaper ice baths, but even a “cheap” one for the whole body isn’t that cheap, and then you have to get enough ice for the whole body. I’ll be interested to see if you notice anything with a single arm bath.
I stopped looking into this area after I realized it was too expensive and too hard to do a whole body ice bath. So, I’m not sure what effect this is supposed to have. I know I’ve listened to podcasts about this, but I think I blocked it out since I knew it wouldn’t apply to me.
Interesting, I haven’t been having ice baths but I have recently been swimming in our local lake which is pretty cold. To the point where my hands and feet started to go numb. Once home and after a warm shower and tea is seemed to take forever to warm up. It didn’t occur to me to check my bloods , I must remember the next time.
