I should be burning fat, right? Three questions

(Jennibc) #28

I think we have all been brainwashed by people trying to sell us stuff for FAST WEIGHT LOSS! The truth is, for it to be sustainable it needs to come off slowly. I WISH I could take off 8 or more pounds a month. I can put weight on that fast but to take it off, it’s more like 3-4 a month for me.

(Kirk Wolak) #29

First,
Please get a Keto-Mojo and test your morning glucose and ketones every day.
Before eating, after you wake up. This tells you what is going on inside. For example, if I don’t get enough sleep or too much stress, my morning glucose numbers are higher.

Second you want to focus LESS on the scale, and more on the internal improvements. Knowing your glucose is trending down is great. Sometimes, as you may have fatty liver, you might experience a few day BUMP in glucose in the AM, followed by a woosh of weight loss. I am not 100% certain, but I consider this the liver healing, and clearing out “old/hard stored glucose”.

Also, you will find that # of carbs can be meaningless. The goal is ultimately to NOT produce insulin. Producing Insulin STOPS your access to your fat cells for fuel for anywhere from 2- 24hrs!!! (thin/healthy people can access fat burning in 2hrs or maybe even less).

So, if you have only 5g of carbs, but it TRIGGERS an insulin response. You will get kicked out of ketosis. And it could be for days! A common mistake is the artificial sweeteners, especially in the beginning. Your body MAY produce insulin expecting that its the real deal. And that ZAPS you of your energy, and then you REALLY NEED a fix of sugar, because you don’t have access to your body fat. It’s a nasty cycle.

Also, do NOT cut your calories lower than your need, your body will lower your BMR as a result. For some reason, the ladies think less is better. You want to manage your metabolism HIGHER not lower. Dr. Fung talks about this.

Finally, since eating leads to Insulin releases, that’s where Intermittent Fasting can really shine. The fewer meals/snacks, they fewer insulin hits. The longer you can access you ketones. The higher your numbers will be (at least in the beginning).

Oh, and for exercise, I recommend nothing harder than walking in the beginning.

If you had to choose between more and better sleep or exercise. Take the sleep. EVERY TIME. I lost the majority of my weight NEVER going to the gym, or going and walking, or walking laps in a pool. But I had 3 hernias, so it was mostly off limits to me.
The weight still came off fine.

I know people who work out hard, spike their cortisol, and trigger hunger. Not worth it.

And do I believe testing your morning numbers is important?
CRITICAL. That plus a food diary has let me help so many people so quickly.
Especially when you find that “Red Dye #5” was blocking someones ketosis,
or BPC using powdered mix stopped their weight loss.

Also, with the meter, you can test what these foods do to you! I found that Coke Zero jacked my glucose levels up (first up, then down hard). Basically, my body thought it had sugar, and gave me a dose of insulin to counter it. Then I end up hangry/cranky/wanting to eat something… Because I no longer have access to my stored fat…

Good Luck!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #30

Please cite something to support this claim. My understanding of RER and RQ is that carb and fat burn can and do occur simultaneously pretty much all the time. There is a current topic in which we are discussing this very phenomenon right now. Even if you are fully fat adapted in ketosis with little/no glycogen in your muscles you will probably still be burning some glucose, red blood cells which can’t use ketones/fatty acids, for example. If you are not in ketosis and not engaged in extreme exercise and eating carbs, that is most people most of the time, you’re still burning some fat.

(Kirk Wolak) #31

In short, I think you misread my reply. Details and general references to my sources are below.

I said: Insulin STOPS your access to FAT CELLS. (meaning you cannot break them down). This in NO-WAY says your body cannot burn fat or ketones or glucose. It’s a signal that is known to exist.

Metabolically DERANGED people with IR, like myself could get knocked out of ketosis for 24hrs or more. Happily that is no longer the case. But during that time, it is SIMPLY the liver that stops making ketones, and working fat back into glucose. Which IMPLIES you are not burning your STORED fat (or body fat: ie, “your fat cells”).

More details below…

LONG ANSWER until I re-read where I think you misunderstood me

I read this in Dr. Fungs work, I believe. Dr. Boz also has a video on this (as to why drinking alcohol stops ketone production)

But let me be clear. Metabolically HEALTHY people (and especially atheletes) can switch much faster. It appears that as your metabolism becomes more out of whack, the longer insulin will turn off ketone production. This is well understood as part of Insulin Resistance. And it is the basis for Intermittent and Extended fasting keeping your fat burning going.

In the lack of INSULIN, a T1D goes into Ketoacidosis. NOTHING tells his liver to stop making ketones. Because that molecule is Insulin.

Yes, you can BURN ketones if they are available. BUT you will stop making them. Which means, you will stop burning your body fat! Because the body knows it has plenty of glucose to consume (and NOT consuming it could be dangerous).

And re-reading my original paragraph, I was quite clear in that it stops access to your fat cells. Of course your mitochondria can burn available fuel. But the discussion was about not being in Ketosis (ie, not making ketones). And INSULIN is a pathway to shut that down.

At LCD 2019, one of the presentations was about the insuligenic response of foods which RUINS the concept of Glycemic Index. Because a smaller, more processed carb will trigger MORE insulin to be released, and resulting in the same glycemic effect if you look at blood glucose. But you are ignoring that you had either a small spike in insulin or a massive spike in insulin. The presenter pointed out this is very significant.

You burn what fuels are available. For example, the ORIGINAL T1D dietary treatment had them drink 2 shots of alcohol! Why? Dr. Boz explains this… Because in the presence of alcohol, your body will ALSO stop making ketones.

Now please realize the difference between BURNING FAT (which we can always do to various degrees, based on our health). And MAKING KETONES from our body fat. Which your body has at least 2 reasons to AVOID Doing: (Presence of Insulin, which is a fat storage signal, and presence of Alcohol). There may be more, but these two are well documented.

In a completely fat adapted person, their ketone levels are low. Mine are now 0.7 most days without fasting. I am fasted for 30hrs, and they are 1.0 right now. They would normally be double that. But I have pretty much adapted. Pee sticks no longer work for me. And I already hit my target weight. My metabolism is still healing, but getting there.
These are all important variables. The person, the diet, the results.

(Bunny) #32

If you want to improve both of those on your chosen caloric intake and/or ketogenic diet you would need to build more skeletal muscle.

For example: Lifting barbells (lifting as much as you can tolerate to build skeletal muscle) for biceps and using some type of machine to work your gluteus maximus would increase body fat weight loss potential (including visceral fat {major cause of diabetes} with enough choline in the diet before or after its accumulation) and improve BMR and RMR with the advantage of being able to increase carbohydrate intake with time!

When lifting weights and lifting as much as you possibly can (A MUST does not matter how much weight you can lift just as long as you are doing it?), you want to allow some time for a recovery period at 10 or 20 reps a day or more if you can handle it?

Another example:

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image link

When you see these type of statements such as in the case above, we must ask ourselves why only 60% are reversing there type 2 diabetes, why not everyone? (one reason is they had more skeletal muscle or lean body tissue when they started the ketogenic diet?)

Those maybe (not in all cases but the majority of that percentage) the ones with less skeletal muscle and choose not to try to increase it? That is why they fail to reverse there type 2 diabetes with a well formulated ketogenic diet?

#33

60% of which patients? All Diabetes patients? I can think of a dozen reasons why just off the top of my head. If I was invested in making a list I could probably come up with a hundred or so more reasons. And skeletal muscle wouldn’t be one of them. :wink:

I wasn’t trying to raise either of those. Should I be?

(Bunny) #34

Most of us misunderstand metabolism. Here are 9 facts to clear that up.

Sorry my bad when I say “improve” your resting metabolic rate RMR and basal metabolic rate BMR; you do that by increasing skeletal muscle mass!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #35

Thank you for your informative response. My interest in RER/RQ is specifically about those who manage to lose body fat on non-ketogenic weight loss diets. Many do. In fact, many on this forum can attest that they lost fat weight in various/sundry non-ketogenic plans. Keeping it off long term is a different issue. How did these people burn body fat in the presence of relatively elevated insulin if, in fact, insulin is an on/off switch for fat cell access? For example, if someone has an RQ of .75 to .85 on a so-called ‘low fat’ carby diet plan, insulin should have closed the switch, yet still they burn fat. If they’re on a fat reduced diet, how do they manage to burn significant fat if not from their own fat cells? One of my brothers attempted to go keto with me 2 1/2 years ago, but settled for ‘low carb’ instead. What he means by ‘low carb’ is still 150-200 grams per day. Yet, he has managed to lose body fat since then, so he has accessed fat in the presence of insulin. So I’m curious about how that works. Maybe insulin is more like a rheostat rather than an on/off switch.

PS, the measurement of RER may be within the realm of home use very soon. I sprang for one of these. Delivery expected in November, hopefully.

(Kirk Wolak) #36

I think you can explain that with the calorie restriction.
If you eat below your caloric needs, and you are NOT eating too many times/day.
I see it easily happening. Remember it only shuts off access for a period of time, and in people who are overconsuming carbs, it is longer.

So, you start cutting calories, and your body lowers it’s insulin response to the reduced amount of food. I know one guy who ate whatever he wanted, but went to OMAD. Ate with his family, and after he stopped losing weight on OMAD, he cut calories, and added exercise. Eventually he went keto, but he lost more than 60% of his weight just going to OMAD. Which would reduce the amount of insulin from 5-7 hits per day to ONE.

Next, imagine the poor sap who is eating 3 meals a day. Still an insulin improvement, but you are going to have to DEPLETE your glucose and your liver is going to have to generate it at some point. This is that FUNKY stage where you feel lethargic and hungry. Until your body starts producing less insulin, and realizes food is scarce (how, I am not sure), and probably reduces how long insulins signal will last. So, you eat, and you cannot burn fat for 2hrs instead of 8. So, you can start burning fat for a couple of hours.

Finally, some people do diet where their lunch is a salad, not very high in carbs or fat. I used to try this.

But this is Conjecture. Obviously we can access fat burning to varying degrees.
The variables here are the NUMBER of insulin hits, and the AMOUNT of calories, IMO.

Fewer calories = smaller insulin response = faster access to stored fat.

But I have a friend who gets into ketosis on 100g of carbs a day. I HATE HIM, Of course, but it may happen for me one day. He was not nearly as metabolically deranged as I was, and his was only the last 3-4 years (back then).

The LUMEN sounds interesting. Keep me posted!

I just signed on with a company working on a home insulin and C-Peptide kit.
Very curious to see the insulin effect of various foods!

Finally, our bodies are incredibly complex. Our ability to accurately describe what it is doing is still progressing. (Rheostat: Could be. Maybe if the insulin was enough to make it to the liver it is different than if it works in the other tissue first. Not sure)

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #37

That would be me.

(Jeremy Wheatley) #38

I consider myself a runner. I average around 80-100 miles a week. And in my experience with exercise and weight loss i would have to completely disagree with the statement that exercise isn’t a good way to lose weight. Exercise is great for weight loss. “Running” on the other hand… Sure you can lose a few pounds and it’s a great way to strengthen your cardiovascular system as a whole but you’ll get far better results doing some type of hiit program or light weight training.

(Kirk Wolak) #39

Jeremy, YMMV…
But at 307lbs I was more prone to injury, and frankly, the calorie burn was far too small to be worth the Appetite Increase it caused. This is DietDoctor.com and MANY MANY Other doctors (Dr. Boz, Dr. Berry). They don’t talk to people about the “E” word for weeks or months, and find it better to let the patient bring it up.

As I lost the weight, I Felt more like working out. My challenge was that it triggered huge glucose spikes which often led to massive cravings/hunger for me.

And as I learned MANY years ago, YOU CANNOT OUTRUN a bad diet. It is physically impossible to exercise off and extra 1,000 - 2,000 calories EVERY DAY.
Your body will break down.

I consider Exercise to be HEALTHFUL and BENEFICIAL, but not REQUIRED to losing weight, and for MANY obese people, not worth the risks.

So clearly “Exercise w/o dietary changes” isn’t a good way to lose weight.
And with all of the stress of dietary changes, adding stress is not helpful for many.

Yes, it is beneficial, but ONLY WHEN your energy metabolism has improved to the point that you actually FEEL like MOVING again. I have a hard time sitting still, unless I am inflamed again.

(Kirk Wolak) #40

Here is the simplest explanation and experiment.
Take any aerobic exercise. And calculate out the calories burned.
Now get your resting metabolism, and calculate the calories burned doing NOTHING.
It will be an estimate. Both are.

Subtract resting from moving. And THAT is the “additional” benefit. It is usually smaller than you realize. Which is eye opening!

Next, if you factor in the stress, which can push cortisol, which can push insulin or worse… Which can then make you hungry. (This is MY stress result. My wife CANNOT eat. She pushes adrenaline under stress. Loses her appetite for days under severe stress). Me, I get hungry after driving in a stressful environment.

And MANY people who are Obese are stress eaters by admission. It’s not their fault. They are not just seeking comfort. Their body is triggering them to eat. My wife, needless to say, naturally maintains a healthy weight! (I kinda hate her, TBH, LOL.
She can actually eat bread and crap, small glass of SUGARED SODA, and be in ketosis the next day before her meal w/o trying to be in ketosis)

So, don’t do it for weight loss. Do it to increase metabolic rate (Weight lifting/Muscle building). Do it for Health reasons like joint strength, muscle tone, keeping muscle. And as a POSTIVE Stressor (Hormesis)… BUT NEVER in the beginning. NEVER Like the biggest losers.

I would rather fast than exercise! And if you do the calorie math on that. Fast for 3 days a week, versus 2-3hrs of exercise for 3 days a week. Fasting wins for calories!

On the other hand, I like to walk. And my goal for 2019 is to walk 2 Marathons over 2 days. One Marathon on Saturday. One on Sunday.

It’s kinda a mind thing. We have been programmed to exercise. Name one other Animal that goes to the gym or exercises (versus just goes out and moves and plays?)

(Kirk Wolak) #41

LOL. BTW, if you still have 20-30 lbs to lose, I would definitely remove one meal a day.
My brother made ONLY this change, doesn’t really do Keto, but does better. And lost 30 lbs. He is happy with his weight, and wont go full Keto because he likes his alcohol and is pretty active, wasn’t too heavy.

This was the first tax season he barely gained any weight in 20+ years!

But YMMV… but it is SO WORTH the change. Today is a fasting day for me. I love having the ability to go DAYS without eating. It’s empowering.

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #42

Thanks for the tip. I understand keto has become synonymous with fasting which sort of bums me out because I have a disordered eating history so I choose not to fast. My weight loss, although slow, is a wonderful bonus added to the reasons I started keto which include feeling better physically and mentally. I tried fasting a little in the beginning and it triggered the negative self-talk and feeling of failure I thought I was free from so it’s a nope for me.

(Susan) #43

@PetaMarie

It is way better to be feeling good about what you are doing and remembering that slow and steady wins the race. Even if it takes a little longer for the weight to come off, you are still having all the amazing benefits of Keto. I always try to remind myself that we didn’t gain the weight in a short time, and we are re-establishing our metabolisms and rebuilding our bodies, so it is a process and a life style, not a diet! =).

(Jeremy Wheatley) #44

I definitely wasn’t trying to be offensive with my opinions. And certainly didn’t mean to sound as if I was saying exercise is mandatory… only disagreeing with the statement that exercise doesn’t work…

(Wendy) #45

You may find this YouTube very helpful. It’s in 2 parts. I found the discussion about sprinting to be very interesting and other things Dr brought up about health benefits he’s seen from Keto in his patients.
17 pounds is a great start and at our ages (I’m 54) that is not a bad rate. Especially if you factor in that you may be increasing muscle mass as you are losing visceral fat.

https://youtu.be/QbcV0l3zlLc and https://youtu.be/ntEXJtPCEy0
I really liked these videos and can attest to seeing many of the changes in my own body. I am also motivated to do a bit of sprinting myself.

(Kirk Wolak) #46

Sorry, everyone has different issues. Disordered eating is real. I would NOT try fasting with your past experience, WITHOUT being under supervision from a coach/therapist who is WELL TRAINED in these things, and arms you with the appropriate tools.

I was so afraid of fasting, I hired a coach. It made all of the difference to know what to expect BEFORE it happened, and have a plan for dealing with it.

In the end, I have learned… THIS IS A MENTAL GAME! Hunger pangs, etc. etc. are all easily overridden. So much of my eating was “Rewards Based”. When I did well as a kid, I got a “Soda Pop”. When times were good, we had dessert. Normally I was on the free lunch program. Cheap Food is better!!! (OMG, I really had all of those things wired up in my brain. No wonder… I still remember binging one day, and I was comparing prices/servings on the sizes of the little Debbie boxes to determine which one to get.
Lets just say I was making more than 60K/yr at the time, and it never crossed my mind
how much I was making. Just the old program to get the cheapest POISON to fill the void. MIND YOU, I was going to eat the ENTIRE BOX!)

This is why I always say YMMV…
What’s right for me may never be right for you.
What worked for Joe (or how joe remembers it), wont work for everyone, etc…

(Kirk Wolak) #47

Jeremy,
I did not mean to attack. Your message had a ring of “Just Move More” to it.

And MOST of us are probably here after FAILING. I spent 2 years at the gym, AVERAGING 5+ days/week. I had personal trainers, and a nutritionist. I was FLAT for 2 years of all of this work. Many weeks, I would go in on saturday and get an extra day in.
I usually used saturday to catch up if I missed a day during the week.

I was doing cardio EVERY day, and weights 3x/wk. I developed joint issues, and despite being in “better” shape, I was not improving.

My underlying cause was INFLAMMATION, not calories. Food Allergies. Now that
those are out of the way, I am far more enjoying and responding to exercise. It aint bad.
But it depends on what part of the journey you are on.

Just starting… WAIT… Wait until your body says “Hey, I have some extra energy, you wanna go outside?” That’s what mine did! And based on my research, that tends to be the norm. A Healthy body doesn’t choose between: Couch an Kitchen at every choice!