I Hope Keto Doesn't Get A Bad Reputation

#21

There is a hard line on carnivore and it is truly as simple as that.

Does flakes of parsley on a steak mean you are not carnivore.
No. But why eat that crap anyway and most zc people long term would figure out that is useless addition not needed.

Eat a blueberry is no different than my licking the mashed tater spoon a bit for a taste. Will not make you not carnivore, makes ya WONDER WHY you are doing it and I fixed that trouble thru my plan.

HOW we walk thru our journey is key. How we ‘allow’ and ‘see’ and learn on what we need is they key to any plan and that is very personal and on our own timeline of change.

So yea, you eat a tad of spice etc or a lick of a spoon but your entire MEALS are zc, then you are zc and on plan and learning.

You decide to go off that plan and make your own truths, and if it fits you very cool cause it is what it takes for you and your eating, but plans have guidelines for sure. ALL of them do, like Keto means ‘stay in active ketosis’ numbers thru your eating so you do just that.

So yea there is a line, but HOW we get to the plan that suits us best is personal on that. You might hold so strong to that plan and do the plan as intended or you waiver and add/delete and find what fits you and then you fall out of a ‘planned category’ of ‘your plan ya started’ with and that is cool and you made the food fit you. Not a darn thing wrong with just that.

but if someone ‘needs a plan’ as scripted thru decades of experience from those who walked it and ate it as needed, then yea there is a line some can’t cross and they find that out.

alot of chat on it, just how I feel on it. I walked thru alot. LC to extreme LC, to Atkins Induction foods only into VLC and ZC so yea I did my darn walk as we all must do thru this big change.

the more crap we drop from our lives food related the better we do but some have plans they require in that line of guidelines for best health possible. So?? To me it is ALL a learning experience on personal health and reactions to food as it goes down for each of us personally.

We all must find us in any eating long term plan we want in our life and we must also open our eyes to what suits us doing just that I guess.

(Ethan) #22

Sounds like you consider Shawn Baker not a carnivore then, since he does drink wine occasionally. He eats berries sometimes. There isn’t a clesr line. You are totally wrong

#23

nope did not say that at all. Baker said some have to walk into carnivore like 70/30 and wean down into 100% carnivore yet SOME people took that as the plan…thinking carnivore is 70/30…30 eat the crap ya want. This is wrong and his forum site proves it over and over again that SOME are not even close to eating carnivore and realizing what the plan is all about. That is what I said. I wasn’t referring to him and saying he ‘ate 70/30’ at all.

you are off on your thoughts on what I did say.

wine/liquor is chatted about on zc. we know this.

if he eats berries it is NOT a meal and yea he says he eats some birthday cake ONCE a year cause he allows it.

Carnivore is daily meals all in animal protein/seafood/fish only with some dairy if you can tolerate it and some condiments if you do well on them.

after that every one is friggin’ human and will take a bite or 2 of something in a year :slight_smile: but the focus at all times is meals are carnivore point blank.

I am not wrong.

How long ZC are YOU? and what ya know about it in full truth?
UGH

you tell me how long carnivore you are and you tell me what you know about this plan thru experience on zc forums and years you know abut zc and research, then we can chat, other than that, just fluff to me…write it out and we got a conversation, other than that we got you not knowing much on carnivore I would think?? Back to you and personal experience!

(Ethan) #24

I am over 1.5 years now Carnivore. I’ve slipped up on some keto items before (and it isn’t a good result). I have eaten the occasional avocado. Eating a single avocado once a month doesn’t make me not a carnivore. There is technically no difference between a carnivore and an omnivore.

#25

Not been around alot of other zc people and those concepts I guess?

of course you can eat an avacado once a month and still be a carnivore.

but why would you? I guess cause you eat it and you get no ILL effects from it? I get that but most who NEED to go all in zc would never go there. Yea they would if they could LOL

there is a diff. in carnivore vs omnivore in what you eat daily, whatever your MEALS are per day. Your avacado is a side item to your meat meal and it is NOT you whole true big meal focus ya know.

1.5 yrs carnivore and I ain’t seen ya on the zero carb category page we chat all the time. Makes me wonder on it all.

But I am glad you are zc and you require it, but you can bump up into plant ingestion that don’t harm you when you can.

Heck I can eat mushrooms with my steak and I get no ill effects, but I read all that ‘plants’ take from us to ‘give us some seemingly good effects’ and find the negative is more in my life on that intake.

thing is carnivore and omnivore play doesn’t come into effect in truth for those who need OFF certain plants. So your avacado could harm another easily. But again, that is a personal choice.

And that statement: I’ve slipped up on some keto items before (and it isn’t a good result). I have eaten the occasional avocado.

just means you are on that line, you are allowing plant carbs to control you when if one goes ALL IN carnivore and drops the other, you change even more to stop the backslides.

If you are 1.5 yrs in you know this. Surprised you are not chatting on the zc threads we chat here actually cause all of us few zc people here unite.

So it is semantics I guess but there is a huge diff. between eating carnivore plan and being an ‘all in’ omnivore eater plan. Again a zc person would figure this out and know it truthfully.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

Amber O’Hearn wrote a blog post on the definition of carnivore, a few years ago. It is available in several threads on these forums, and I suggest everyone look it up and read it. Carnivory is a lot like Mr. Justice Holmes’s understanding of pornography: hard to define, but we know it when we see it.

(Elizabeth ) #27

Shawn Baker is a freak of nature who is using biohacks to try to learn more things about his body. He does not recommend that stuff to anybody. He’s earned his credentials in the carnivore community and has done more than anybody else in my opinion to bring attention to this way of eating. You can eat whatever the hell you want to eat, and no if he sat there with the bowl of berries everyday I wouldn’t consider him carnivore. Or honey. :slight_smile: here’s what a 13-year carnivore vet and founder of zeroing in on help has to say about it. http://zeroinginonhealth.com/what-is-zero-carb.html

#28

it is every day all meals vs. some condiments and a rare acceptance you allow like a slice of cake at a birthday party type thing.

if one goes ‘off their carnivore meals’ and ‘eats whatever, whenever’ they are not carnivore. It is SO simple truly yet so many 'need this ‘title’ and yet they are not that? Whatever, I guess life goes down as it goes down :flushed: with the ‘line that is drawn’ on your plan title.

Love what ya wrote on it :raised_hands:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #29

Since most of the people I’m acquainted with eat carnivore because even small amounts of plant matter cause them problems, I pretty much would avoid anything plant-related. Though perhaps not coffee. :coffee:

#30

oh that darn coffee HAHA

so many love it and do well but when they delete it, and could be hard I am sure, since I never liked it and drank it, they find better improvements alot of times…but many say, nah I am fine drinking it and hey whatever floats your boat on that one :wink: :sunny:

coffee has 1 issue in zero carb. Do not use it to replace food.
other than that have at it if it suits ya :crazy_face:

seems weird to be chatting carnivore outside of the zc/carnivore category for me :astonished:

#31

gonna bow out now before me get trouble coming my way :skull_and_crossbones:

any zero carb chat can be in zero carb/carnivore category area now for me. Never wanna hijack to this state. Come one, come all and chat carinvore any time ya like in the right area. We got answers :scream_cat::heart:
over and out

(Elizabeth ) #32

Here’s an 11-year carnivore who’s a research scientist she has a few things to say about this http://www.empiri.ca/2019/05/who-is-carnivore-problems-of-names.html?m=1

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #33

I don’t have a horse in this race. Still I think that our Pleistocene ancestors were in ketosis pretty much most if not all of their lives. They got there and stayed there eating mostly if not exclusively carnivore in the strictest sense of ‘plant-free’. Simply because with a few seasonal exceptions there was no alternative. Plants were mostly lignin and cellulose and whatever parts were not contained so few actual nutrients not to be worth the bother and energy expenditure to gather.

Aside from the folks who have serious issues eating plants and who end up carnivore in the sense of ‘totally plant-free’ for health reasons, carnivory like keto, now means different strokes for different folks. It runs the gamut from @Fangs to @EZB, ie ‘the only good plants are no plants’ and ‘some plants are OK to eat some times so not a big deal’. Just like the keto folks ‘discuss’ the value or lack of value to carbohydrates generally. Just my 2 cents.

#34

There is a line but it’s a bit blurry and individual. It’s the same with vegetarianism and that’s clearer to me as even occasional, yearly meat eating is out.

We clearly define things differently. Keto should be clear as it’s about ketosis but it isn’t as for many people, keto is staying below 20g net carbs. Or total. Possibly with zillion restrictions. To me, it’s only about ketosis but I don’t care about ketosis very much, I don’t notice any change when I cross my ketosis carb limit and I do it all for changes for the better. So I do my best to go lower with the restrictions good for me. But it’s my own keto, my general definitions is only about being in ketosis.

I have a carnivore and a carnivore-ish definition for myself, it’s a tad blurry but not very much. And others have their own. But carnivore is strict, we can’t call any woe with super tiny amount of plants carnivore as it makes no sense, it’s the same when people eat meat and call their vegetarian or vegan, it loses its meaning that way. And the tiny plants should be part of a meaty or possibly eggy dish, they aren’t eaten for themselves… Usually? But rare accidents don’t make someone a not carnivore as eating a worm in a cherry doesn’t make someone not a vegetarian.
The previous was my firm opinion, obviously not everyone thinks so but I find mine quite good (well of course. but still, what can be wrong with it? it’s not strict carni but I don’t mind if people call themselves carnivore while putting garlic slices on their big piece of pure roasted meat. I mean, sugary condiments and marinades are totally not carni to me but I didn’t think about it much. it would be frowned upon in my carnivore-ISH but well, I can live without sugary condiments very well :D).

But I like not overthinking this so my woe is carnivore-ISH. It may or may not having little plant matter to compliment my very animal based food. It’s simple and true :smiley: Berries aren’t carnivore-ish to me but if I want them, I eat them, of course. I can live without labels but I have one anyway: I am a low-carber (it can’t keep me having high-carb days but those are insanely rare and about as much idiotic, I start to think).
(And I am always an omnivore according to my definitions. If I eat any plants - or fungi, I am an omnivore in my eyes. As a homo sapiens, I am an omnivore anyway. But animal “carnivore” and human woe “carnivore” are two different things. Carnivorous animals eat plenty of plants compared to what is considered carnivore for a human, usually. As far as I know. I never was in groups where people eating lots of plants called themselves carnivores… I mostly met carnivores here - and I saw some on reddit, they were crazy, fresh meat wasn’t good enough for some of them but we are humans, not vultures or something… So this forum is the only place where I met sane carnivores and their thoughts made sense to me so I must have a similar definition for carnivore. With my own personal quirks. As I don’t feel it’s very carnivore to have lots of animal sugar but milk is an animal product so I can’t say it’s not carnivore… Whatever, I never met someone even near the carnivore woe who wanted to drink milk.)

The extra things we may or may not add, that’s very very personal. Why I would eat this and that? Because it’s worth it, it gives me joy and it takes nothing away according to my beliefs (and I am very sure a little plant can’t harm me if a ton of plant couldn’t harm me noticeably - except throught the high carb intake. but it doesn’t matter, if it’s a super tiny bit harmful, it’s still totally worth it to me). Obviously we choose different things as we function differently, physically and mentally.

But I only eat carnivore-ish on my very best days anyway and it won’t change any time in the near future :slight_smile: I understand Fangs (reading the same several times already): it’s worth to go all in to see if we get some big positive surprise. I do my best in November because I am curious about it and I actually know it’s not always ideal to stop too early. It’s worth to go as deep as we comfortably can (I am a hedonist, I only do comfortable things. sick people don’t always have this luxury)… Maybe that won’t be our ideal woe but what if we get something life-changing from it? I never went deep enough as I physically couldn’t and I need time to get used to things anyway (oh and because I got so much just staying close, without being fully strict). But I can imagine a better life even just through a somewhat different woe. And I am a super curious type. So I will try it when I can.
Even tiny amount of carbs can mess with us, I experienced that too. My troublesome amount wasn’t super low but who knows what would happen with more elimination or doing carni for a longer time? I surely can’t until I try.
And yep, quitting coffee would be nice one day. I already tried but this is the single addiction where carni couldn’t help.

(Ethan) #35

You can’t really draw that line so clearly. Look up the definitions of carnivore and omnivore. You’ll find that there is no technical point where a carnivore becomes an omnivore. It just doesn’t exist.

#36

EZB
you are talking physical body, I am talking an ‘eating plan’
Nature gave us ONE thing for survival and ONE thing the body never requires, carbs. So if protein/fat are met thru animal kindgdom foods, then that one plant carb is meaningless for survival and NO ONE can change that physical aspect of natural life. The omnivore aspect is backup survival methods thru starvation to obtain animal protein/fat. But as ZC people we know this!
I thought you would have understood that part I was chatting? Clearly you are off base on my posts to you and not understanding the most basic zc concepts. If you are nearing on 2 yrs on this plan I would have thought more knowledge and experience on research etc. would have been a focus for you because many of us never go into zero carb without reasons and seek answers to why we came this direction.

(Ethan) #37

You really don’t seem to get what I am saying here and sound a bit nutty. I am glad we both found that this way of eating works. I don’t consider somebody who may occasionally eat a pickle to be violating what it means to be on the carnivore diet. Eating a few berries if they are there isn’t going to be a problem either. Shawn Baker has said that, too, many times. It’s time to calm down. We don’t need to be nutty or crazy about this.

(Tracy) #38

Very good points. I understand that the world isn’t black and white. I think it’s a personal decision to eat grass-fed butter, organic, free range eggs, etc. The reason I went keto was to reverse diabetes, lose weight, control hunger, recover from carb addiction, and hopefully prevent dementia. If I eat some aspartame sweetened jello that doesn’t mean I’m not in ketosis. It means I’m choosing a bad sweetener that could potentially have adverse effects. If I eat a bag of sugar-free candy sweetened with maltodextrin, I’d hope someone who has knowledge about keto would inform me of what it’s doing to my blood sugar. What gets me is when someone who drank diet soda for 40 years criticizes me for advocating dirty keto because I ate store brand butter.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #39

And if we eat a bag of sugar-free candy sweetened with maltitol, we will pay a completely different type of price, lol! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

(Ethan) #40

OH NO! I agree. That used to be the only SF chocolate–always the wrong choice.