How much veg do you eat a day?

(Todd Allen) #25

When consuming a caloric deficit to lose weight every additional calorie not eaten is essentially replaced by a calorie of endogenous fat. If one were to consume no fat, no protein, and 50 grams of carbs - the worst possible macro ratio, one would still be in ketosis if they weren’t exceeding their carb tolerance/budget.

I think some make the mistake of focusing on the consumed macro ratios and eat more fat to compensate for eating more protein and especially for eating more carbs. But it doesn’t work that way. Each additional gram of fat eaten is merely preventing an additional gram of endogenous fat from being burned.

Carbs are a problem when they raise insulin blocking fat burning. Even worse when this leads to the blood sugar roller coaster which increases appetite. Slow digesting carbs such as those in leafy greens are very unlikely to cause those effects unless one has a very deranged metabolism. And their bulk can help with satiety with significantly less total protein and fat making a net win for weight loss.

Clearly fruit such as tomatoes have an unfavorable keto profile with too high a ratio of carbs, especially sugar and are a bad choice if one is trying to maximize weight loss or ketosis. I only eat our home grown tomatoes which probably have no better a macro profile then commercial tomatoes but they have an amazingly better taste and a small amount greatly increases my enjoyment and satisfaction. It’s often been said “The best diet is the one you can keep.”

(Larry Lustig) #26

I’m afraid you won’t find a great deal of support for this idea (a simple restatement of the Calories In Calories Out philosophy) around here, or in the ketogenic community in general. The body has a variety of options when confronted with fewer or more calories than it received the day before, burning or storing exogenous fat is only one of them. (And this is coming from someone more inclined toward CICO than most people here).

(Adam Kirby) #27

Maybe a serving or two a day. We usually have a vegetable with dinner, or a salad. Overall I don’t eat all that much though.

(Jane Reed) #28

Typically I’ll eat 50 grams of spinach or kale, 60 grams of onion, 30 grams of mushrooms (that’s weight grams not carb grams). I may add a few olives, a spoonful of homemade sauerkraut, a small pickle

(eat more) #29

this freaks me out…
i think you meant compensating for eating less carbs?
the way it reads (to me) is that you’re advocating low fat. i know i zeroed in on the “preventing…” statement and i hope others don’t and think eating fat will prevent them from losing body fat.
i think you meant additional gram over satiety or set targets?
with CICO and IIFYM hitting macro targets whether you’re hungry or not is a thing but i’ve never seen that in regards to “standard” keto…as in not for gaining muscle mass…bodybuilders are a diff story lol

(Todd Allen) #30

Mikki, perhaps I said it in an awkward fashion but I was trying to communicate the ideas put forth by Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek in their books which is that one should be eating carbs below their tolerance threshhold which minimizes blood glucose excursions and insulin response. One should eat protein to meet their needs for amino acids. Beyond that additional protein becomes anti-ketogenic as a significant fraction will be converted to glucose and further reduce ones carb tolerance/budget. Fat is the primary swing factor to meet ones total calorie goal. If one wants to maintain weight they will need to eat a high fat diet as you just can’t eat very much carb or protein and stay keto. And to lose weight you cut back on fat from that which you would eat for maintenance. Carbs and protein are fairly restricted at maintenance without much room for further restriction for weight loss and thus adjusting fat consumption is the primary tool for adjusting total calories.

Which is to say that there is no magic ratio of macros which is keto. There is a limit for carbs and protein which varies from person to person modulated somewhat by physical activity. Being below that limit for carbs and protein is the main factor in being keto.

(eat more) #31

freak out averted :blush:
thanks for clarifying

(Todd Allen) #32

I’ve never heard anyone argue CICO is wrong. And there is nothing magic about keto that sets us free from the tyranny of CICO.

The problem with CICO is it is so overly simplistic that it is essentially meaningless with respect to individuals concerned about their weight.

(Crow T. Robot) #33

I’m not going to argue with you, because I think a source of arguments about this is simple semantics, but I think you’ll find that in this forum, we believe that primarily hormones are responsible for weight gain/loss.

(Larry Lustig) #34

Search this very forum for CICO. You can start with:


(Todd Allen) #35

Hormones are a major regulator of both calories in and calories out and are largely responsible for weight gain/loss. But that doesn’t make CICO wrong, just that it is very hard to control weight without taking hormones into acccount.

(Crow T. Robot) #36

This is why there are pointless arguments. You’re apparently saying “CICO” in a way that most people don’t mean. If you go anywhere else and talk about CICO, they take that to mean that hormones don’t matter, type of calories doesn’t matter and it’s only about the number of calories. Various Laws of Thermodynamics are often brought in a supposed proof.

It sounds to me like you just mean that the amount of food you eat is the main driver of whether you gain or lose weight. Correct?

(eat more) #37

funny i was just thinking about this while driving…if CICO was the only factor i should be a super famous fitness model by now :joy:

edit: or at least have a fitness model body…unphotoshopped lol

(Todd Allen) #38

Your examples each accept CICO as fundamental and discuss how hormones impact appetite and especially calories out.

(Todd Allen) #39

I wasn’t the one who brought up CICO. That was larry contesting my post asserting you can’t eat more fat to make up for eating too much carbs or protein. One of my statements on fat he equated to CICO ignoring the context of it being the carbs & protein being the primary drivers of hormone response.

I thought it a weak way to challenge my argument. CICO is fundamentally correct, just not useful in isolation. Likewise, the challenged statement is largely correct but also useless when isolated from the context in which it was given.


This sounds like you are saying gluconeogenesis is supply driven rather than demand driven. I know there is a lot of disagreement on this. Has it been tested and proven one way or the other?

(Todd Allen) #41

Gluconeogenesis is both supply and demand driven. If you deplete liver glycogen and your blood sugar falls too low you will convert protein to glucose. And if you eat more protein than your body can utilize as amino acids the excess is catabolized. How that occurs depends on the amino acid, but you can kick yourself out of ketosis eating too much protein without eating any carbs. And for those who find they can only stay in ketosis when eating much less than 50 grams of carbs, odds are good that glucose from excess protein is impacting their carb budget.

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #42

Another way of looking at it is that CICO is an effect, rather than a cause.
It’s just like and end of day accounting balance.
It doesn’t drive whether we gain or lose weight.
It just is.

(Bob) #43

Everybody is different. Keep adjusting your macros as needed until you find the right balance to keep losing weight. Use basic Whole Foods for the first several months. No recipes for your food. Stuff like 2 eggs, 1 can of sardines in olive oil, 1/4 cup olive oil, etc. This way you can measure the amount of macros in grams and be precise in what you are eating. As you adjust your macros you will improve in weight loss. Intermittent fasting is something that will help you. I was eating 70 grams of protein, 10 grams of carbs and the rest in fat. 1000-1200 calories a day. I was losing 1/2 pound a day and then my weight loss hit a brick wall and stopped. My body had gotten used to a 1200 calorie diet and my metabolism adjusted to it. This is where fasting comes into play. I went on a 4 day fast then came off it slowly and resumed a 2200 calorie diet with same macros. 70 grams protein, 10 grams carbs and the rest in fat. After 4 days I fasted again for 5 days. Now I am currently eating 1200-1400 calories same macros and the weight is coming off again. Before starting intermittent fasting check with your doctor and tell them what you want to do. Fasting talk with Jimmy Moore, Megan Ramos and Dr. Jason Fung is a podcast with lots of information and is another valuable resource for weight loss. The bottom line is that if you want to lose weight in a healthy way and not put it back on you will need to educate yourself. Education is key. I hope that helps. Stay calm and go Keto.


can you explain,please? Is it not keto eating carrots if under 25 net carbs?