How much protein!?

(Mónica Rojas) #1

Hi, I need some clarifying in this. How much protein should I eat, per day!?

I’ve heard that to calculate this, for each kilogram of lean body mass, you have to have, 1,5 grams of protein. But in my in body results, my interpretation of it is that I have 29 kg of lean body mass… does that sound weird!? Or normal!?

In which case, I’m supposed to have 43,5 grams of protein…. And that’s when I get confused… 43 grams a day!? Per meal!? Or I should get a new in body scan!?

Thanks in advance for your comments!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

Here’s how I calculate this for myself: I weigh 220 lbs., or 100 kg. Assume that my lean mass is 70% of that, or 70 kg.

Our recommendation on these forums is 1.0-1.5 g of protein per kg of lean mass daily, so I would therefore be eating 70-105 g of protein, which is about 280-420 g of meat. In ounces, that would be 10-15 ounces of meat a day. None of this is terribly precise, and a rough approximation is sufficient, in any case.

In your case, 29 kg = 63.8 lbs., which sounds low to me. Are you sure about this number? Even if your lean mass is only 70% of your total weight, that still gives you a total weight of 91 lbs./41.4 kg, which seems low, unless you are extremely short and fine-boned.

At any rate, the recommendation for protein is an amount per day. Remember that most meats are only 1/4 protein. If you are calculating in pounds, a good rule of thumb is 7 g of protein per each ounce of meat.

(Mónica Rojas) #3

Thanks a lot! :raised_hands:t2:

Indeed I’m not petite ja ja ja si I thought that number wasn’t right.
I’ll make my calculations with this new information. Thanks!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #4

¡Buena suerte!

#5

Do 1g/lb of bodyweight, only go by lean mass if you’re obese, and if you are, you probably have more muscle than you think. That’s enough to give you some wiggle room. It also depends on your current stats and end goals are, how much exercise / working out you plan on doing.

(Joanne) #6

This always confuses me too. I’m a 59 y/o female. I do keto and IF (TMAD & OMAD alternating) and there is NO WAY I can eat all the protein the “experts” keep saying (louder and louder lately) that we need as a bare minimum. Something like 100 grams per day for me. Impossible. The most meat I can stomach at one meal is 4-5 oz (plus some good fat, veg, 1-2 oz cheese, some nuts and berries). And that’s my max without feeling like I will burst.

My collagen supplement gets me within striking distance of 100 gr, but I don’t think it counts.

#7

Diet Doctor has some solid guides on protein - including the different recommendations from various experts, and some visual depictions of what a serving of protein looks like:

It’s important to recognise that one-size doesn’t fit all. Some thrive on higher protein; others thrive on higher fat. Some have different macro splits on different days. I don’t think you’ll find any judgement here; you have to do what works for your body.

But just to put forward an argument for higher protein - after all, it’s important to consider all sides! - I eat upwards of 200g of protein a day. When I was tracking earlier in the year I ate 250g of protein almost every day, now it’s nearer 300g of protein - and I have gone up to 400g at times (probably 1-3 times a month).

In the spirit of sharing relevant information, I started resistance training 3 days a week in the last few months, but I do not currently do cardio.

I read an interesting study a few weeks ago about the effects of consuming 4.4g of protein per kg per day in individuals who resistance train: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4022420/

The results of the current investigation do not support the notion that consuming protein in excess of purported needs results in a gain in fat mass. Certainly, this dispels the notion that ‘a calorie is just a calorie.’ That is, protein calories in ‘excess’ of requirements are not metabolized by the body in a manner similar to carbohydrate.

And also a more recent study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7353221/

It is evident that total protein intake is an important factor for any alteration in body composition. Based on the current evidence, protein intakes that far exceed the RDA may promote additional gains in lean body mass as well as a decrement in fat mass. However, in order to best achieve a gain in lean body mass or loss of fat mass, this is best achieved when complimented with a rigorous resistance training program.

I think I’ve seen significant muscle improvement due to the combination of protein intake and exercise. When I tried higher fat keto years ago, I fell off the wagon in a big way; with what I know now, I think I wasn’t gaining sufficient nutrients using a higher fat split.

Obviously, your mileage may vary. All you can do is experiment and see what works for you and your lifestyle. Lots of people here will be willing to share their experiences on different approaches, I’m sure.

#8

Wow… I never understood how people can stay way below 100g protein, 100g is the minimum for me on a very low-cal day! I go over that if I eat 1000 kcal… And my protein need is surely a bit lower than that…

I find the recommendations very low for me, I mean, I can’t really eat only adequate protein for my own body. I believe 1-2g/kg (lean bodyweight) is the way to go, my plan would be 1.5-2… I just can’t eat that little but as long as my body feels great with more, I don’t worry. But I don’t want it to be super high. I make sure I keep my protein as low as comfortably possible (it’s somewhat beyond 2) and I try to stay below 4g/kg every day (very easy, actually but I focus on fatty protein as I like that and anyway, it’s more logical, less wasteful, cheaper and everything).
I could go higher for sure… But I eat the least on my carnivore-ish woe, meat is very satiating so this little is enough :smiley:
5 oz meat is nothing to me (and it was the case when I was almost vegetarian. I ate no meat on 350-360 days per year but when I did, I meant business. it’s food to get satiated with so I need bigger amounts. I ate 10 chicken thighs for dinner at my aunt but that doesn’t count as chicken can’t satiate me. for normal meat, 1.5 pound per meal is my absolute limit but it’s super, super rare). But I almost never eat a whole pound either (but I eat eggs too). Unlike many others. And indeed, a pound of meat isn’t so much. I just get satiated or bored earlier and my meat is quite fatty so eating a pound of it would be way over 1000 kcal with my eggs and while ~1200 kcal is still a smallish meal if it’s my first one, it often doesn’t feel so on carnivore if I choose my food items well and only use satiating ones. And meat except fowl and maybe fish, never tried that, is super satiating. I never could eat 2 pounds of meat of a day, it’s too satiating for that. And many people do that amount…

I eat 6-8 eggs per day in the times when I don’t fancy eggs (and do eggs and meat only like now. I can’t eat only meat!!!) as they find their way into my drinks and meat patties and whatnot. They are too convenient and helpful :slight_smile:

So yep. I need my food and my food is meat and eggs, obviously my protein intake is high. By the way, eating 270g fat doesn’t lower my protein intake, I don’t work that way. My protein must come or else my body screams bloody murder until I eat enough.

29 kg lean weight may be realistic for a very small female with very tiny muscles?
I suppose mine is around 55kg, I am short (but just as short as an average Americal woman I have read, wow… so there are way way shorter ones), 45 years old and definitely not muscular… But I have extra fat and my muscles are just small not barely existent, I do workouts with weights, cycle and hike… For 29 kg, one really should be an extreme case I imagine…

OP, what about eating as much protein as you want? But not too little. 80-200g a day? Say I this very blindly without any infos but there are individual factors too… I do this range as a short woman with some activity (though it’s a rare day for me to stay below 120. but it happens, it requires lots of satiating fat though). Sometimes I go higher but that is fine too. Some people notice problems when they eat high protein but one doesn’t know that beforehand…

(Joanne) #9

<<<“5 oz meat is nothing to me”

What do you do if you go out to dinner? Because 5 oz is a standard portion size. Do you order two entrees?

<<<“I ate 10 chicken thighs for dinner”

I can’t imagine this. And I’m wondering how we got to a place where this is considered “normal and healthy”, but the way I eat – a standard portion of say…two chicken thighs, is considered frighteningly low in protein.

Sorry, I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but I’ve been hearing this for a while now from A LOT of keto nutrition experts I respect and admire. I just don’t know how I can get there without:

  1. gaining weight
  2. an increase in my A1C
  3. feeling like I will vomit

My portions are, I believe, closer to what humans eat naturally (throughout history and all over the world). You don’t often see someone chowing down on a pound of steak or half a dozen eggs at one meal. Unless they’re in an eating contest. :laughing:

#10

Good question. I never eat out, it would be hard with my woe anyway. It was already impossible on vegetarian keto (I dislike cheese in dishes too and hated green leaves with a passion :smiley: only I could cook for me) but those were the times when I had meat (I wasn’t vegetarian just almost never ate meat and never on keto as my protein was way too high even without it, I didn’t even know I don’t need to keep it adequate only, stupid early times with all the misinformation… but it was usually high, my body didn’t care and I don’t force things) and broke keto too so I had the side dish as well, not like that helped with satiation… It was years ago, I don’t remember but I probably did that.
I suppose I only would eat out in steak houses? And when they asked me what I want with my 300g steak (I don’t know the portions but they aren’t tiny, I mean 300g as raw weight, it’s not exactly really big) I would answer another steak? Nope, one probably would be okay, I may eat before etc.
I know a nice place where one can eat all the meat they want…

5 oz meat as a standard portion size sounds quite bad… It reminds me of kitchen lunches and those were bad when meat was concerned, once I cried as a little girl as my meat was so tiny and I stayed hungry…
I am sure a proper place has way bigger portions.
There are those plates for 2 people too… And once I spent a lot of money in a Japanese restaurant bying a huge selection and I wasn’t hungry even a day later, well that included rice, I didn’t do low-carb yet but there are sashimi plates too…

I NEED 1000-2000 kcal for a proper meal and it must be eggs or meat, mostly. Of course 5oz meat wouldn’t cut it.

10 chicken thighs sounds much for me too, indeed. But I was hungry and the chicken was tasty and it happens once a year when I visit my aunt and reach her place in the evening after almost no food all day (just a few eggs at most). It’s not like I ate ONLY the chicken, mind you, I am hungry after chicken, no matter the amount. I see absolutely nothing unhealthy in eating big meals sometimes (and definitely not small ones other times), it’s normal for some of us. I need my nutrients and if I am hungry, it’s definitely not healthy to suffer… I am the type who needs bigger meals (usually. carnivore changed things but I dislike my tiny meals, I need so very many of them per day! fortunately it only happens now and then) and forcing myself to become different is not hedonistic, not healthy and impossible as well.

I don’t eat much meat. That’s not me. Ask the carnivores with 2-4 pounds of meat a day, at least for a while :smiley: I am so adorably modest :smiley: (And stopped eating useless chicken, it doesn’t work for me.)

I won’t gain weight eating 120-200g protein on carnivore, I don’t eat at a surplus as it’s not super fatty meat, I avoid added fat as much as possible and now dairy too. I will lose fat like that - or I never will. But I would be quite surprised if eating even 1.5 pound of meat every day would keep me from losing the fat I should lose… That’s not so much food (even adding some eggs) and humans are big warm-blooded mammals, needing the energy.

Half a dozen eggs are an appetizer… Or a small meal. I surely would need some meat with that to get rid of my hunger at lunch! Serious contestants eat 100 eggs or what, well that’s insane.
A pound of ruminant meat sounds nice even though I can’t always eat that but as I already told, I don’t eat much meat (except maybe compared to the average carb-eater). I did 1.3 pounds of beef once, what’s wrong with that? It was an elongated OMAD meal and I only had that and a single yolk the whole day. It was a modest OMAD meal…

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

It is risky to judge all people on the basis of one’s own experience. “Common sense” can take us only so far. That’s why we have developed the scientific method to use in conjunction with common sense. For example, “artery-clogging saturated fat” seems to make sense at first glance, but it has been shown that it is carbohydrate intake that clogs the arteries with fatty acids, and fat intake does not.

As for portion sizes, the steak houses in my area routinely serve portion sizes of 10, 12, and 16 ounces of steak. I generally get a 12-ounce portion. And that’s just one of my meals for that day. Granted, half a dozen eggs at one meal is a bit more than I generally eat, probably because I accompany the eggs with a fair amount of bacon.

However, on a zero-carb/carnivore diet, I probably would eat half a dozen eggs (or more) at one meal, and probably quite a bit more bacon to go with it! If all I were eating were meat, then ten chicken thighs would be a reasonable amount for me.

As for your bullet points:

  1. Gaining weight is not a function of how many calories we consume, it is a function of what kinds of foods we eat. Remember that, in normal circumstances, protein calories are not used to fuel the body; instead, the constituent amino acids are used to create new lean tissue and to repair damaged proteins. The body is fueled by carbohydrate (glucose) and fatty acids. Excess glucose stimulates an insulin response that causes much of that extra glucose to be stored as fat. Excess fat intake has a minimal effect on insulin secretion.

  2. I’m not sure why eating more protein would cause an increase in HbA1C. Unless you believe that all protein intake above a certain amount is converted into glucose without exception. That fear has been shown to be unwarranted.

  3. Now, that is a very valid concern. You should never eat so much food that you want to vomit. Go with an amount that works for you.

(Joanne) #12

Thank you. I do think we are all so different in what works for our bodies and feels right. Also…age, sex, activity level all play a part.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #13

I have found this is were a lot of people get confused. The grams of protein are not the grams of meat weight. Once you get that part clear, it makes more sense.

@Monikeke, welcome to the forums. Wishing you much success.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

It’s difficult to respond specifically unless you provide more details about yourself. For example, why are you eating OMAD and TMAD? 5 oz of meat is about 140 grams, or 30-35 grams of protein. If that’s your limit per meal, then 3 meals gets your daily protein close to 100 grams. If you drop the veggies, nuts and berries, even moreso. A lot of folks think you need to eat this stuff for a healthy diet. But you don’t and eventually you discover that you’re only eating it because you want to not because you need to. I eat collagen daily - not as a supplement - and count it towards my daily protein total, but it’s not my only protein source so it’s lack of tryptophan is not an issue.

#15

I looked up a steak house. It has a tiny steak (18dkg, about 6.4oz), the normal is 25-30 dkg, around 10oz and they have 60dkg/21.4 oz too. The fishes are all 20dkg, over 7 oz.
Most menus don’t include weight infos I fear, that’s one reason I looked up a steak house - and because I plan to try steak one day :smiley:
And they add sunny side ups, bacon, spicy butter and whatever I want. Sounds good. I surely wouldn’t stay hungry if I had enough money :wink:

My SO considers 5 oz way too little too. Wow and he is the one who eats tiny meat and lots of carbs as they fill him up perfectly while they make me hungry…
But he needs bigger meals too and his energy need is way bigger than mine… 3 tiny meals just can’t cut it and he don’t want to feed all day… He usually eat 2-3 course lunches too. If he ate only meat, well that would be a serious amount even when he want to slim down below 140lbs…

(Michael) #16

I am going to add my (unpopular?) opinion on this topic

  1. I do not believe you NEED more than 0.4 g/kg of bodyweight. But this is NEED, not optimal. Jason Fung describes the history of protein as coming from the US in the 1950s when the US was eating more protein than most other countries. At that time, the average in the US was 0.6 g/kg of bodyweight and two standard deviations higher gives the decided upon 0.8 g/kg of bodyweight. People were thin and healthy compared to today, so seems like 0.8 g/kg is plenty on it’s own - assuming Jason Fung’s story is correct.
  2. I eat way more than 0.8 g/kg of bodyweight. So while it might be sufficient, I LIKE protein. Recently for the short term, I have been eating 900g (30 oz) of steak per day, which gives me a metric crapton of protein/kg. In general, I tended to eat around 1.5 g/kg on the SAD diet.
  3. I feel that anything above 1 is more than enough. With tons of evidence to support higher protein loads are not damaging to the body (except with stage 3 or higher kidney disease maybe), and some evidence (especially as you age) that more protein is overall better. I agree with the forums general suggestion of around 1-2 g / kg in general.
  4. This board has made it clear that in general most people feel protein does not affect glucose and therefore a1c. I feel that my glucose monitor disagrees (not CGM though for zero carb yet, so I could be wrong still using the finger prick a few times a day method). That is why I started time restriction and noted the better glycemic response on my recent carnivore exploration in the past few weeks. I believe it is due to high insulin resistance which means a higher starting Insulin to Glucagon ratio when eating protein. If the ratio starts above 1.5ish or higher, you will a greater insulin spike then glucagon spike to help balance and drive the increased glucose back down. With people who have been on keto longer (the ratio more like 1.3), they start with a lower ratio which does not change with only protein intake, and glucose remains stable due to this in combination with less insulin resistance. Ben Bikman noted this in his video, and my body seems to agree with this extra protein caveat in regards to metabolic disorders. So I would suggest it depends on your metabolic health somewhat, but for the vast majority of people, too much protein is not a concern (chronic kidney disease and severe metabolic disorders as possible exceptions) . I intend to post a CGM values while eating zero carb carnivore both with and without TRE within a few weeks. That may vindicate or devastate this post then :slight_smile:
#17

Do a keto bulking diet for a couple weeks, willing to bet your mind will change on that one! I did a handful of straight keto bulks long before I went CKD/TKD and I assure you the scale noticed it REAL fast!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

I don’t think anyone claims that eating 150% 200% 300% above energy expenditure has no consequences. Of course it does - human evolution and survival for a couple million plus years depended on the ability to store excess consumed energy. The hormonal theory does not deny thermodynamics nor our capacity to store energy. The issue is that within a reasonable energy ‘window’ of maybe +/-500 kcals, whether the energy source is carbs or fat, insulin and glucagon primarily, but other hormones as well, are more important determinants of how much energy gets stored rather than an arbitrary kcal total.

#19

Absolutely.

Another key element is that many people don’t know their energy expenditure, and many are misled by the claims of the diet industry. We see it a lot when people join and think that their calorie limit is 1400 or 1600.

I made a remark when I first joined the forums that I’d been trying a different macro split (not keto) and calorie restricting during lockdown. Despite eating 1600 per day (and I weighed every single thing), I wasn’t losing at all - I was cold, hungry, annoyed, exhausted, and obsessed with my next meal.

I eat carnivore now and I eat around 2400 calories per day. I release so much heat now - it’s noticeable when I get up off a chair. I’m still wearing t-shirts and sitting outside at night when it’s around 12C, when I’d have normally been grabbing a jumper.

I eat to satiation so I’m not hungry - and that means my mood is better because I’m not hangry. Not being hungry/hangry means I don’t care about food; I don’t even think about it. Finally, I’m no longer exhausted so I can weight train - previously, the thought of it felt impossible because I was just so tired.

My natural energy expenditure is obviously a lot higher than what I assumed. That’s what bothers me in these topics - it isn’t that we should eat double our expenditure and expect to see weight loss or body recomposition, but most of us (not those who’ve done body scans) don’t have a true image of what our energy requirements are and are selling our bodies short without realising it.

The diet industry’s mantras are toxic - and it takes a long time for them to be unlearned.

(Kenny Croxdale) #20

Calories Count

Yes, the kind of foods we eat plays a role in gaining or losing weight.

With that said, so does the number of calories consumed.

HbA1C

Protein isn’t going to increase it.

Kenny Croxdale