High Fat


(John) #64

Relating it to the chart, it sort of gives you an idea of where you currently fall, so how much of your energy is obtained from fat and how much you need to eat.
Assuming a normal metabolic rate, BF% etc. which of course will make the end result an estimate:

This means if your metabolic rate is 2,000 calories a day, your body fat will produce 1,260 (2,000-740) which means 740 calories, or 37% of your total needs to come from outside your body. Looking at the chart that would suggest you are in his Adjust area right now. This means you need to consume 740 calories of some type. Letā€™s assume you eat 10 carbs which is 40 calories so we get a nice round 700 remaining. Converting 140 pounds to kiloā€™s we get 63.5. This is again up to you and your body/goals but a recommended amount of protein is .8-1 gram per kilo of lean mass, lets just plug in 1 which is 63.5 grams of protein which in turn is 254 calories. This means you have 446 calories you need to consume, we have hit our protein goal and carb limit, that means fat needs to be the rest. 446/9 gives us 49.5 grams of fat.

This of course isnā€™t too accurate because we donā€™t know your metabolic rate, your desired protein intake, of course the margin of error of the study etc. but you can play around with the numbers to find what is right for you.
Since you seem to know your weight and LBM, all you need to do is play around with the metabolic rate, this is something that will be mostly trial and error, without having it measured you are just making guesses. The ā€œRequired Metabolic Deficitā€ will tell you how many calories need to come from outside your body. Any of the 3 macroā€™s can work, but the main point of the ketogenic diet is to control insulin levels, so from our point of view fat would be the best, protein next, and carbs of course would be the worst. Typically fat is more satiating, but may not be for you, so you may choose to eat mostly protein instead of fat, especially if GNG doesnā€™t worry you. If you plan to lift a lot of weights and are worried about muscle, taking protein over 1 is fine, the .8-1 is just an estimated range.
Knowing that most people here have a carb limit and a protein goal, and also want to impact insulin the least, the general desire is to fill the rest with fat once you have reached your other macro goals. If you are 300 calories away from your goal, but have met your protein goal and are under your carb limit, not eating is fine. If you are 300 calories short but it was mostly fat, you could be well short of your protein goal and may want to eat anyway.


(Todd Allen) #65

Note, this is an estimate of the max rate of pulling energy from body fat. The suggested 740 dietary calories per day is an estimate of the minimum to eat to sustain current metabolic level. But there should be little need to force this maximum rate of weight loss and attempting to could put him into the zone of declining metabolic rate. The 49.5 grams of fat is an estimated lower limit for daily fat intake as opposed to a target.


(Tim) #66

Do you ever say thank you to anyone or do anything to demonstrate even the slightest bit of gratitude? A lot of people have put a lot of time into their responses to your questions for which youā€™ve offered very little, if any, appreciation.

Itā€™s healthy to question what youā€™re told but youā€™ve taken it to a whole new level. Cynicism is not skepticism and it would help you to learn the difference.

My apologies to the group for my tone but itā€™s gotten very hard to watch this exchange and how dismissively peopleā€™s feedback is being treated.


(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #67

@tsyork
FYI the Martin forum member does posts like this one all the time.
Exact same attitude.
All are the same.
They go around and around.
People spend an enormous amount of time and energy. Fruitlessly.
Best just ignore. I try to, but Iā€™m an admin and get complaints. Repeatedly.
You may use the community flags etc. if you feel the need.


(Stephanie Hanson) #68

Iā€™ve read through this whole thing and what jumps out at me isā€¦

It would be nice if there was one neat, tidy, easy way to figure out what works. And it would be especially great if it was the same for everyone.

Obviously thatā€™s not the case or weā€™d all be insulin sensitive, low body fat, disease free, sexies.

The answer that Iā€™ve found is that I have to test all these theories in my own body.

I take my blood glucose, blood ketone, breath ketone measurements. Iā€™ve done (and will continue to do), glucose response testing. I had a DEXA done and know my numbers as precisely as they are available to know.

From my testing I know, I need to follow total carbs of <20g. Itā€™s best if I keep my protein around 55g. I have about 2,000 calories of body fat I can burn a day so I need to eat more on workout days on workdays and on days Iā€™m tired or stressed out.

If you want to know your answers, take the theory and test it out on you. There are far too many variables for one solution to fit us all.

In fact, I believe the only thing that makes sense for all of us is that insulin is a mighty hormone that can cause a ton of damage in our modern day living.


(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #69

I would respectfully beg to differ here.

You canā€™t usually (ever?) prove a hypothesis right.

First you have to state the hypothesis in such a way that it could be proved wrong.

Then you (the originator of the hypothesis) do your best to disprove it.

If you and peers are unable to disprove it, then it may just be correct.

More likely itā€™s only partially correct, until someone comes up with a slightly better hypothesis, and then the process begins all over again.

That is (very crudely, and very approximately) the basis of the scientific method, as I understand it.


(G. Andrew Duthie) #70

Arguably true, though some hypotheses have more evidence for them than others, via repeated experimental replication. Still only takes one demonstrated failure to disprove the hypothesis, or at least to demonstrate that there are circumstances in which its predictions cannot be replicated.

This is so important, and I think itā€™s something that gets missed an awful lot. If an hypothesis is non-falsifiable, then itā€™s not really science. This is one reason why the use of models to simulate things we cannot conduct experiments with arenā€™t terribly useful, because if we canā€™t conduct an experiment that would potentially falsify the hypothesis, then itā€™s not really something that the scientific method can fully address.


(Nick) #71

Mike, you are of course correct. I was using a shorthand which I can see could be interpreted as being ludicrously un-Popperian.


(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #72

Sorry Nick. My inner pedant sometimes gets a bit uppity. :slight_smile:

And Popperian / un-Popperian is my new favourite adjective. :slight_smile:


(Renee) #73

Ok I hate to be a pain in the ass. But if you stay at 20 grams of carbs or lower. Eat the right amount of protein say itā€™s 6 oz/day for me. But over eat fat to the point that you are overstuffed, will you continue to loose weight??


(Nick) #74

It depends what your body does. It may uprate certain metabolic processes, empty cycling etc, and your gut will absorb less of the fat bolus (leading to thunder-pants etc!); or it could throw the lipids into your adipocytes come what may, and youā€™ll become temporarily fatter.

Stuff yourself too much, and youā€™ll literally throw up. An excess of fat in particular will make you queasy, and getting more will be excruciating uncomfortable. So long as your leptin signalling is working, you will find it very difficult to eat excess over the medium term, as overfeeding experiments find. You will become repulsed by food, and your body will fight you hard to prevent damaging energy excess. This is the point of leptin, after all. You CAN damage the leptin brake, however, via jnsulin resistence and leptin insensitivity through carb overload.

Itā€™s like water. If your endocrine system is working properly and you drink a large amount of water, your blood pressure will go up temporarily. Your body will regulate salt in compensation, and your thirst will turn into repulsion. You will hate any further sip, will be queasy and eventually throw up. However, if you mess up your system via certain drugs, or by having insufficient electrolytes whilst doing strenuous exercise, you could drink compulsively or become hyponatremic and die. But other than this, the notion of ā€œdrinking too much waterā€ should seem ludicrous to you. When thirst and repulsion work, the notion we need to count droplets is as ludicrous as the notion of having to count calories should be.


(Deb) #75

Anything that is insulinogenic. Medications that cause weight gain.


#76

I have been in the same dilemma. Because of all the many camps on the fat consumption. I can see that if you eat too much fat your body is not encouraged to burn its on. On the other hand, eating fat may encourage the body to burn more fat and the insulin factor -that fat doesnā€™t raise the insulin significantly therefor you are able to stay in ketosis make sense too. eating to satiety is a new experience as is eating fat. When I measure my ketones , Iā€™m not regularly in ketosis. its a bit crazy since I am so low carb.

I have been eating a ketogenic way for 5 months and have not lost weight. I not longer drink my bullet proof coffee in the morning as recommended by someone on this thread. Break my fast with it around 1pm. Chart my macros, eat less that 15 carbs a day and 60g or less of protein. Workout 1 hour every day. . 30 weight lifting 2x a week full body and walk for an hour the remaining days.

I donā€™t know what to tweak next, wading through all the information is daunting.

thanks, Becky


#77

I see this is for fasting , Can you tell me how this could be applied to the amount of fat one needs to eat to loose weight? I am looking at the dietary fat Iā€™d have to eat to prevent metabolism from slowing down, the required metabolic deficit . I have been working with a prominent Drā€™s assistant who now has suggested I keep fat at 60 gm. before she said to keep protein at 60 and fat 90 gm. I am thinking this isnā€™t a good arrangement.

the fat quotient to protein is perplexing, I realize it is very individual. I am not an ignorant woman, I have a degree in Chemistry but for the life of meā€¦


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #78

The way Iā€™ve seen it put is that there are two modes that the body operates in when in ketosis: (a) plenty/fasting, in which body fat is available for use and lean mass is spared; and (b) calorie restriction, in which the body reduces the basal metabolic rate, hoards fat, and uses its protein stores for gluconeogenesis.

This is the reason Dr. Phinney gives for advising people to eat fat to satiety; it convinces the body that there is energy in abundance. He says that when people do that, they spontaneously limit their caloric intake to a level suitable for losing body fat. He also advises not using the scale as your measure of progress, but rather how well our clothes fit as an indication of changing body composition (Iā€™ve certainly noticed my clothes getting looser, even when my weight isnā€™t declining). He says itā€™s possible to be in ketosis and not lose weight, while still losing inches and becoming fitter. In one lecture Iā€™ve watched, the audience asks about how to handle a stall, and he says that when you think things arenā€™t working right, the first thing to do is to cut carbs, and if that doesnā€™t work, eat more fat. He said that eating less fat is the one thing we must not do.

What I donā€™t understand in all this is what mechanism tells the body when it has become lean enough and doesnā€™t need to lose any more fat. Iā€™m afraid that my body and I might disagree on that point, lol!


(Lisa Stevens) #79

Iā€™ve been doing keto for about 5 months with some fasting. Recently I tried changing things up so Iā€™m not on any set schedule. This week I did a fat fast for 3 days. Nothing works for me. I had lost a couple inches but gained them back. I stopped using the scale because it just pissed me off. LOL! Anyway this past week I went to the doctorā€™s office and he asked me about why I gained 12 lbs. Iā€™m 56, blood glucose is finally in the 80s down from as high as 120 first thing in the morning. My labs came out great for keto, trigs cut in half, HDL extremely high but fasting insulin was 10. I have more energy, go me, but I really want to drop some inches or weight. If you want to go by weight, I would be happy if I dropped 25 lbs. Does anyone have info they can direct me to when it comes to being a frustrated older woman on keto?


(Arlene) #80

Lisa, Check out Diet Doctor.com. He has a full article about women after menopause, and the struggles that go with it. Best of luck with your search. Many women on this forum struggle with the same issues. Thereā€™s plenty to read here. Casey Durango has many youtube videos on the subject as well. Plenty of information out there. Hope you find something that works for you.